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Comment by iambateman | Hacker News Reader

There is most certainly timeless user-interface design.

Look at a book from 500 years ago compared to a book today. While the underlying tech is completely changed, the fundamental principles of book-user interaction remain the same.

A lamp in the 1920’s had a screw bulb and a switch.

The piano has kept 88 keys and 3 pedals for centuries.

The asdf keyboard layout will never change.

When it comes to website design, we see some standardization happening across the industry for what a website ought to be. I expect the homogenization will continue as websites get measured for business results and find local optima for solving the various problems.

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> A lamp in the 1920’s had a screw bulb and a switch.

The bayonet mount is alive in most of the English-speaking world (except for North America). It has been mostly phased out in France but it can still be found.

> The asdf keyboard layout will never change.

I wish more people knew that the asdf keyboard layout isn't something universal. I can't play games that use the wasd keys without allowing remapping because of that.

>> A lamp in the 1920’s had a screw bulb and a switch.

> The bayonet mount is alive in most of the English-speaking world (except for North America). It has been mostly phased out in France but it can still be found.

And right now we're at a time where LEDs are rolled out everywhere, giving much more free hands to lamp designers.

> And right now we're at a time where LEDs are rolled out everywhere, giving much more free hands to lamp designers.

You'd think so, but houses still have bayonet fittings so LED bulbs are standardizing on those (or on screw fittings, I guess, in parts of the world that use those.)

GU10 fittings do seem popular with the smaller bulbs, though. LEDs can get away with using these for higher output bulbs because they're so much more efficient.

It is true, that there are still many lamps with traditional separation between lamp and light using a standardized connector.

However the trend shows that flexibility of directly building in long living LEDs is increasing.

Out of curiosity I was just searching for desk lamps on Amazon and first two pages were all LED-bases, which makes sense, since those are all design elements (sometimes of better, sometimes worse designs) where LED gives lot's of freedom.

Looking for ceiling lights gives a few classic connectors, but also lots of LED.

(This might be accelerated since I'm in EU, which banned classic lightbulbs for energy reasons ... over alternatives which are a waste issue)

All that is likely to achieve is either very expensive replacements, instead of commodity priced bulbs, as they can be manufacturer specific. Or entirely sealed units making the entire lamp or fitting disposable.

The market and lamp designers have done this already with LED desk lamps and many formerly standard fittings.

This is not progress, and is both environmentally and financially abusive.

Putting LEDs into an E27 bulb is a really bad tradeoff. For maximum lifetime, LEDs need to stay cool. So you want to space them far apart from another, preferrably soldered on a big metal part that acts as a heat sink, and far away from the transformer. Putting everything into a small package is at odds with that.

So a light with integrated LEDs can have a lifetime that's much longer than one with replaceable bulbs.

Additionally, the total complexity is a lot lower for lights with integrated LEDs. It's just not true that lights without replaceable bulbs are less environmentally friendly -- in many cases it's the opposite.

I'm sure that applies, except "lights without replaceable bulbs are less environmentally friendly" which seems nothing more than wishful thinking.

preferrably soldered on a big metal part

An obvious solution to which would be soldering the LED to a metal connector that mates with a heatsink. We could call it an "LED bulb".

Of the assorted LED bulbs, fittings and sealed LED only products I've so far owned few have got to even 20% of claimed life before colour temperature or brightness has become pitiful. The only exceptions thus far are in my monitors (not exactly room level illumination), and in a few year old torch - but that has usage in hundreds rather than tens of thousands of hours.

So it looks like we really need some replaceable LEDs. Manufacturers would, of course, prefer to sell another desk lamp or kitchen fitting when the LED inevitably deteriorates.

The fact that alternatives exist doesn't mean the design isn't timeless

You're just as likely to see a keyboard instrument with 25, 37, 49, 61, 73, or 76 keys as you are 88 these days. Pitch and mod wheels are also a staple of certain kinds of keyboard instruments.

Aftertouch adds pressure sensors. The most advanced form of the keyboard interface at the moment would probably be the ROLI seaboard [1].

I do expect that the 88 key piano will be a staple of music for a long, long time, but I'm not sure I would call it's interface timeless seeing as it's still being modified and adapted to this day.

[1] https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SeaboardG-61--roli-s...

I think the principle is still correct considering how much the basic keyboard interface has remained the same.

And yet, some random composer or musician from 100's of years ago (Say, one F. Chopin or J.S. Bach) transported to today would have absolutely no problem recognizing and using the instrument.

That's also true. The interface is in fact much older than the piano, having first been used on harpsichords, clavichords, and (I think) pipe organs. If I'm not mistaken, the black+white keyboard we use today was invented around the 1400's. The piano itself dates back only to the 1700's.

I can see the argument for the keyboard being a timeless UI because it's lasted mostly unchanged for about 600 years now.

I can also see the argument that 600 years isn't that long in the scheme of musical instruments. We've found ancient flutes from at least 30,000 years ago. The lyre, popular in ancient Greece, is not that different from a modern harp. Lutes are thought to have been present in Mesopotamia around 3000 BC.

Site note - I was surprised to learn that Bach lived before the piano became popular and apparently did not endorse the instrument until a few years before his death [1]. He would be familiar with the interface from earlier instruments, though.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano#Early_fortepiano

Bach composed for the Harpsichord as well as the pipe organ and was instrumental (pun intended) in bringing about the modern day piano.

Offtopic:

> The most advanced form of the keyboard interface at the moment would probably be the ROLI seaboard.

Arguably. Some like that it brings new possibilities, others highlight that it comes at a price.

Just like some would call Macbook Pro's Touchbar the most advanced laptop keyboard interface and some wouldn't.

> Look at a book from 500 years ago compared to a book today. While the underlying tech is completely changed, the fundamental principles of book-user interaction remain the same.

Well, if we went back further, we might get to codices or even scrolls, which are fundamentally different from books in their user interaction.

"never say never" will always be more right than "never".

> The asdf keyboard layout will never change.

I'd take this bet in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, we might be dead before I prove you wrong, so I wouldn't get to collect my winnings.

I am inclined to think that it will last at least as long as the current family of languages. Of course, I also consider this to be a tragedy since it's not a particularly good layout.

Tragic relative to what could have been, amazing relative to what used to be...I mean hey, it could be a pen and paper. ;)

They layout will persist until the keyboards themselves are gone.

Agreed. Although your post reminded me that I just saw a 97-key Bosendorfer. You could feel and actually count the vibrations of the lowest C key!

Canons of page construction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canons_of_page_construction

Surely you mean the QWERTZ layout.

I think he meant QWERTY yeah... Maybe not aware of the reach of AZERTY in the world, and other keyboards.

I think you missed the fact that the person you are replying to uses a German keyboard.

My piano has 92 keys. (Bosendorfer 225). 85 keys was pretty common until the 1920s. And the third pedal is relatively new. Some pianos (Fazioli) have 4 pedals.

Does it go down to the low E?

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