SpaceX is working on a kid-size submarine to extract those boys in Thailand
techcrunch.com
techcrunch.com
[0] http://www.opstechnologies.com/products/scuba/full-face.html
Here is the nasa device, the personal rescue enclosure:
http://www.astronautix.com/r/rescueball.html
(It wouldn't work. Wrong shape and no buoyancy control.)
The best succinct definition for neutral buoyancy I could find was this one, from Wikipedia:
> ...a condition in which a physical body's average density is equal to the density of the fluid in which it is immersed.[0]
This means that once the pod has been weighted to be neutrally buoyant it will be so at any depth of water, since neither it or water are compressible[1] and thus their average densities are unchanged by depth.
The challenges of maintaining neutral buoyancy arise when you submerge a compressible object, such as a scuba diver wearing an inflatable buoyancy control device (BCD). The water pressure (caused by the weight of the water above) will squeeze them and their equipment, compressing anything that is air filled.
To sink from the surface, the diver has to deflate their BCD, and then put sufficient air in it to achieve neutral buoyancy at their desired depth. If they swim downwards, the higher water pressure will squeeze them some more, the air in their BCD will compress some more, and their average density will increase. They will now be negatively buoyant and will sink.
The deeper they sink, the higher the water pressure will be, the more the air in their BCD will compress and the more negatively buoyant they will become. So they'll sink faster and faster. This happened to me once when I was first learning to scuba dive. It can be scary.
The opposite applies to ascending. This is why good buoyancy control is such an important (and difficult) thing for scuba divers to learn.[2]
From a buoyancy perspective, a metal pod is more like a camera in an underwater housing. These are rigid in construction (usually either plastic or metal) and their buoyancy characteristics don't change with depth.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_buoyancy
[1] Not strictly true for water, but true enough for scuba diving depths
The SpaceX design is apparently flexible to fit through the cave, so some buoyancy adjustments would be necessary.
Re-inflation could be done via the same gas cylinder that's being used to replenish the air in the pod.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diver_trim
2) Scuba gear presents a considerable entanglement hazard in a confined space. There are a lot of hoses and protrusions that could get snagged on a rock feature, a guide line or another diver's gear. There's nothing stopping you from using a face mask and some kind of protective vessel to make the kids easier to drag through a cave. That vessel doesn't need to be pressurised to be useful.
3) A panicked diver can be absolutely terrifying. They do wild, irrational and often violent things. Many divers have died or killed a dive partner because of panic, even in quite benign open water conditions. A totally inexperienced diver in a difficult cave system poses a tremendous risk. Brutal as it might seem, a panicked diver doesn't pose a hazard if they're immobilised.
https://twitter.com/yayqe/status/1015287476284346368
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2018/jul/06/thailand-...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2018/jul/08/thailand-...
Edit 1: News media being kept away so they will be light on details for the time being.
2: Chiang Rai health dept head says the two are being examined at the field hospital near the cave.
3: Timely updates in English here https://www.bbc.com/news/live/44755093
> We will be able to continue the rescue operation when we are ready to do so. We will be ready soon, because we will need to redo laying out all of the air tanks and all systems along the way again. We have used everything [in the set up] that we had today. The set up team will do their work again once they are ready. It'll be difficult to tell exactly when the next [evacuation] will start. But I guess it will be ready in the next 10-20 hours.''
8 kids and the coach are still inside. Looks like they may not need any outside help after all.
> 14/ "What is interesting is, if you know #California at all, we are 350 miles north of #SanFrancisco in a little town, #Arcata. That is a little #riverrafting town. We manufacture inflatable recovery parts for #SpaceX".
> 15/ "So we have a relationship. When Elon had an idea he asked our engineering team to get a hold of us. It was wonderful to see it all come through", says Branagh, Wing Inflatables' president and CEO.
“Got more great feedback from Thailand. Primary path is basically a tiny, kid-size submarine using the liquid oxygen transfer tube of Falcon rocket as hull. Light enough to be carried by 2 divers, small enough to get through narrow gaps. Extremely robust.
— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) July 7, 2018”
Video of it being tested: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1016063173139427329
"Rescue crews: the 12 boys + coach each have a dive mask connecting with an air line to their escort/diver. The diver has the oxygen tank/regulator. So, the boys are not SCUBAing, per se. Also, each boy will have physical contact with their rescuer throughout."
Does anyone have any info on what the route is out of the cave? That's a hectic journey.
Tight spots in caves aren't tubes. They are irregular twisty-turning CAVES. Some squeezes (the term of art for the narrow bits where you have to remove gear) are so tight that you cannot take a full breath. Any solid object more than a couple feet long will be stuck very quickly. Now imagine that in the dark, not seeing more than a few inches in front of your face. Then add a swift current constantly trying to separate you from your air supply. When a hardened cave diver calls something "gnarly" take it to mean a claustrophobic nightmare that would send 99% of us into a lethal panic attack.
Worse yet, imagine this sub becoming wedged in a squeeze. Setting aside the terrified kid dying inside, the only way to or from the twelve others is now blocked.
I'm a diver but no expert on caves. I've been in dry caves and have dove a couple lava tubes, but I would never tell proper cave divers how to do their thing. If I were the King I would airlift every possible drilling rig in Asia. I'd turn that mountain into a wiffle ball in the hopes that one breaks through, or at least add more places for pumps.
It's not a solid-walled submarine. http://www.times-standard.com/general-news/20180706/wing-inf...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2018/jul/08/thailand-...
And the pre-planned operation is under way due to lower than expected rainfall making most of the journey walkable.
So what’s what? Why are we talking about Elon or SpaceX at all?
Long term problems need long term solutions and benefit from longer attention spans.
Your reminder to think about those problems is well taken. But, aside from heeding your reminder, I'm okay with this.
Stuff like this gets pretty sad if you think about it in utilitarian terms.
People are quite upset about kids getting separated from parents at the border. Yet offer no help for the thousands of children that die every day.
Every person decides what cause is important to them. The hypocrisy is when people who favor one cause judge those who arent interested in that cause.
I'm pro-choice I'm just saying its not fair to compare abortion to child deaths in general.
Wars kill children.
The moral scale of legalized abortion dwarfs that of modern wars
--------
Between 1945 and 1992, there were 149 major wars, killing more than 23 million people.
...
Recent developments in warfare have significantly heightened the dangers for children. During the last decade, it is estimated (and these figures, while specific, are necessarily orders of magnitude) that child victims have included:
2 million killed; 4-5 million disabled; 12 million left homeless; more than 1 million orphaned or separated from their parents; some 10 million psychologically traumatized.4
https://www.unicef.org/sowc96/1cinwar.htm
There have been more than 45 million abortions just in the US since Roe v Wade
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_statistics_in_the_U...
------- ------- -------
I'm guessing that's not your moral world view, but for the sake of understanding the people you disagree with, you should realize that they view legalized abortion as one of the great humanitarian crises of our time, which easily outweighs most other issues that we squabble about. (And yeah, justifies teaming up with otherwise unsavory bedfellows)
One closely related to the topic at hand: crisis pregnancy centers often supply help to new mothers in addition to counseling them to no seek an abortion. That could mean short term housing, job training, community support (bible studies with other mothers), diapers and other baby supplies, etc...
Just because you can't help everyone doesn't mean you shouldn't try to help someone.
How is any of that hypocrisy?
Read more about this menace here: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/philip-goldberg/missionaries-...
But that doesn't mean mankind is insensitive to suffering. It just so happens that none of us can do anything about it even if we wished to.
> meanwhile how many kids have died worldwide from hunger, disease, and warfare since June 23rd? Probably a bit more than 12. I guess that's not as exciting to read about though.
Food for thought: there are probably a few million stars dying everyday wiping out possible civilizations and life we may never know about. I guess at some point we need to stop looking at statistics and instead focus on fixing what is possible.
more than 400,000 people die each year from malaria alone, a disease easily preventable by buying cheap mosquito nets. If you donated just 10% of your income each month, you'd be able to save many lives each year.
https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/get-involved/myths-about-aid...
Dispels the most commonly held incorrect beliefs about charities.
(1) https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/foreign-funding-of...
(2) https://www.oneindia.com/india/crackdown-on-fcra-violation-n...
(3) https://www.socialpost.news/national/modi-govt-cancels-licen...
If you truly are a "noble charitable cause" then there is no reason to hide your source of funding. Majority of these NGOs (Charities are classified as Non-Governmental Organizations in India) haven't filed their annual returns since their inception. So basically it's unaccounted dollars free-flowing into the country with no mention of source or the purpose for the donations. It could very well be money-laundering or for other ulterior motives. That can only be dispelled if the NGOs filed their annual returns just like every other organization. But the fact that they refused to do it, inspite of it being clearly laid down in law, shows ill-intent. You can't eat your cake and have it too.
For example, mortality under five worldwide: https://data.unicef.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/U5MR_deat...
From about 12.5 million, about 25 years ago, to 5.5 million. Or about 200 thousand children in the past two weeks, most of them due to preventable causes that require better infrastructure, logistics, institutional capacity and resources to solve. The solutions are not trivial, but are not complex either.
Of course there is massive institutional attention for these issues (which is in part why the number of deaths per year has dropped by about 7 million children, akin to preventing a deadly outcome equivalent to the holocaust every year), but the share of popular media attention is a tiny fraction, probably a rounding error.
This just feels like another Kony2012. That's not to say the efforts should not take place. But it is to say that it's once again confirmed that parts of journalism are a complete joke and part of its raison d'etre is providing for those with a fetish for digital disaster tourism, whether it's this or helicopter views of a police car chase. It like putting the real in reality tv. But it's not what journalists say they are, or how media companies describe themselves as.
The simplest solution is to give the children swimming and scuba diving lessons from inside the cave and then once a safe route has been established, the children can get to the exit one by one (accompanied by a professional diver) by swimming along a rope which leads to the exit.
This seems like the implementation of that plan?
It's certainly not safe, as the loss of the recent diver has shown.
I can see a scenario where he wanted to rush it, potentially cuttin corners, because of doom rainfall scenarios. This makes his death more a psych problem than a dive problem.
Another is age/shape. I used to be a fine skater, did a trick I could do in my sleep at 14 at 30 and fell hard. These kind of coordinations need to be maintained and he was explicitly retired.
I think it might work. It helps that they are very young and small and athletic build (and now, unfortunately, really skinny due to not eating much food for the last couple weeks).
https://www.google.com/search?q=diesel+fuel+bladder&num=100&...
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/146FC/production...
I recall seeing one of a vertical cross section so you can see where the kids would need to go into the "submarine", but I can't find it again nor do I know how accurate that map is.
In any case, the above map has a few cutaways showing you the cross section size of the tunnel to human scale.
12 young soccer players and their coach who’ve been trapped in a cave in Thailand since entering it June 23rd, after which they became trapped by rising floodwaters.
Whatever the solution is doesn’t have to be perfect. Since the alternative is almost certain death, anything that gets even a few of them through part of the cave is better than nothing.
And if kept under pressure and combined with constant pumping it might last just long enough to get them out. It doesn’t have to be perfect. It just has to be good enough to get them part way or to make sure they don’t all drown.
I'm praying for them.
Maybe Musk should send a giant pump to get that water out. Don't they have large pumps at space X to fill those rockets?
It means they don't need to keep themselves oriented in an underwater 3D maze while operating unfamiliar breathing equipment.
That said, there's always some people who "lose it" during a dive course or even newly certified divers. Though I've yet to hear of anyone who decides to stop breathing air and opt for water, usually they bolt to the top, which isn't an option here. That risk can be mitigated by doing "pool" dives right where the kid are and perhaps short stays in the adjacent cave areas. Maybe some relaxing music can be played as well... Another possibility is adding some "rest stop" by creating air pockets along the way.
1- We're talking about kids who haven't dove before and probably don't even know how to swim
2- The visibility is 0. Some would be uncomfortable walking through tight dark spaces, let alone having to dive through them.
3- They're kids.
I find it surprising that clearly sport-oriented children from a fairly popular tourist beach destination don't know how to swim.
Drowning is the leading cause of death of young people in Thailand.
At a pool under a waterfall in Thailand last year I saw a bunch of young people trying to swim. No one wanted to be the first in. Some were plainly terrified. Water was waist deep only! Quite a sight.
Musk offered to send pumps too IIRC, but I'm not sure they took him up on it.
It's hardly like the Thai's are using buckets to drain the cave, they'll already have the highest capacity pumps they can find.
A pump for pumping rocket fuel into a rocket is very different to the kind of pump you'd use to pump out a cave. For a start, rocket fuel isn't filled with grit and other bits.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/07/06/cave-rescues-...
A trained Thai Navy Seal died on the route. If these kids have to swim for it the betting odds are they all drown.
No one has any idea on what to do. That’s why nothing’s been done.
Better to take a chance on ordering the boys to lie there and DON'T MOVE!
Could also help to make them stay awake for a long time, then transport them - they'd likely fall asleep in the dark quiet.
And would it be quiet? I would expect sounds of air bubbles, breathing apparatus, scratching along rock in the tightest passages, etc. Nothing high-volume, but it would certainly be audible.
There is zero chance I would crawl through such a tiny hole even without the water. I would freak.
From recollection, that does not seem true at all. All of Musk's initiatives have benefited from his intuitive ability for hip and technophilic branding. See the naming of "Tesla" and "The Boring Company". He also likes to frame his companies' activities in the context of techno-utopian contributions to civil society, and this is nothing new. Outside of the obvious main electric-cars mission of Tesla, they have also built a battery power reservoir in Australia as well as dabbled in solar panels.
As SpaceX, sending a Tesla into space was great PR.
As the Boring company, they sold overpriced flamethrowers as great PR to the technophile crowd.
Whenever a safety incident regarding a Tesla car occurs, Tesla issues a heavy-handed, highly defensive piece spinning their cars to be among the safest, with a constant undertone of shifting all possible fault elsewhere. The April fools tweet sends a sort of "haters gonna be haters" message to his Tesla fans.
So Musk is indeed highly aware of marketing and branding, and this proposal is highly consistent with Musk's branding and strategy. It has the Musk elements of proposals that
1) seem prima facie simple 2) seem prima facie feasible 3) solve a longstanding big or deep problem, that 4) the layman does not think has been seriously considered before as a solution to the problems it tries to solve, 5) where the problem is currently being addressed by a very different solution that seems technologically uninteresting or costly.