basic income does not replace any of these safety nets. you will still have to have them. UBI is just increasing taxes
i’d rather add more safety nets to help those really in need than raise taxes to pay everyone some small amount
basic income does not replace any of these safety nets. you will still have to have them. UBI is just increasing taxes
i’d rather add more safety nets to help those really in need than raise taxes to pay everyone some small amount
Mwuh ha ha! Then why levy taxes for anything?!
Although the existing system is so asinine that sometimes they are, which is just another reason to replace it.
Because people owning tanks and bombs want to be paid for not using them.
Keep in mind, that libertarians are fundamentally against governments telling people how to spend their money. This includes the rich and the poor. The rich should not be told how to spend their money and the poor ought to be given everything they need to survive and not be told how to spend it either. Thus everyone is treated equally in the eyes of the law.
None of these programs actually prevent that. If someone desperate for a job throws a dinner party to try to network and the guests eat weeks worth of their food, they starve before the next allocation whether the food was bought with food stamps or money. Anyone who wants to convert food stamps to dollars can find a little old lady, offer to do her grocery shopping and then buy the food with food stamps and pocket her cash. If the power fails and all your new food spoils, you're not "allowed" to resell your housing subsidy by subletting for a week to cover the replacement cost.
All the restrictions do is cause inefficiency. If someone wants to eat beans instead of steak or even just go hungry some days because they want to save the money for college or a down payment on a house, who are we to judge?
With guardianship that UBI could be directed to an organization to provide that budget management. They can issue a food stamp card, housing assistance, etc. That management could be a government agency or privatized. If privatized it would have to be regulated as a fidicuary.
To me, it seems important to tread with humbleness here because UBI is not a product of modern science. We are not the first to consider it, and it’s never been considered quite an acceptable solution. Why is that?
The problem is, as often with economics, a problem with value and it’s ways of fluctuating across geography, networks, business and social structures in a matter of literally no time at all. Time is merely fuel to the fire.
Social programs are created by a government in the sense of a government that is of the people. Governments are not inherently just rulers of the land. They are ideally institutions built by people for the purpose of maintaining a state of civility and addressing common concern that might undermine that state of civility.
Social programs, or safety nets, serve a very specific purpose: to maintain a floor of minimum dignity (or less) considered acceptible in the sought civil state. If this is defined in terms of money, that level of dignity is then held victim to the precarity of value in a capitalist society; and that is not a floor I would be willing to touch with a ten foot pole; certainly no dignified person would expect another to either.
With commodities necessary to survive, it’s obvious how this can go wrong. We are talking about food and shelter here. Social housing is well-proven and extremely efficient. As it stands, masses of people in the US can’t afford housing at their current wage.
The best argument for UBI is as another economic stimulus, which is absolutely needed to prolong the final crash. The question seems to be who is included in the beneficiaries. So, like much of this type of thing, if we don’t agree to collectively give a shit about other people in the first place, it’s not worth wasting time over.
Um... what? The government quantifies exactly how much it will spend on social welfare programs each year. Simply dividing the budget out by the number of people enrolled (also available from the government) paints a very clear picture of how much 'civil dignity' is worth.
I agree but they are built by specific people - military. The state of civility is not a goal by itself just the best way for the military to get paid for doing nothing of value for the rest of the people, in predictable and stable fashion.
Just as a note, I'm not really a libertarian sympathizer anymore, but that is my understanding of the libertarian justification for UBI.
It makes way more sense to have your constituents be financially educated than to "accept that they are dumb" and then just attempt to fix everything they mess up. The latter is unsustainable. UBI + better schooling should preclude the need for food programs, etc.
UBI should preclude the need for food programs and it also won’t in practice. What’s changed?
Why do you care that jobs don’t work for everyone, but don’t care that UBI won’t work for everyone?
If you’re a ‘people should just be smarter’ person why do you want to help people using UBI in the first place?
Because jobs and UBI aren't the same thing. You aren't guaranteed a job out of high school or college, so you are more likely to have some sort of basis for your claim that you need support from everyone else. On the other hand, with UBI, if you're given exactly what you need to sustain your life and can't, then it's clearly a personal problem.
Right - so we still need a food program for people who have personal problems that cause them to run out of money - like being innumerate, or having mental health issues, or a controlling abusive partner, or just being super crap with money no matter how hard they honestly try.
You can say we’ll leave those people to starve to death, but that’s not going to get me to vote for UBI!
You’ll probably more realistically say ‘ok well we’ll help that one mother just one time with the baby starving to death because she is addicted to gambling away her UBI’ but then bingo you’re now running a food program as well.
We don't have one now; it might be nice to have with UBI as it would be now, but why would it be any more necessary with UBI?
Sure, if UBI is a more efficient means of solving the problems addressed by means-tested programs and unlocks economic potential forgone due to minimum wage, it might make the existing need for such a program something that we can afford to address, but it certainly doesn't create an unmet need that doesn't already exist.
> You can say we’ll leave those people to starve to death, but that’s not going to get me to vote for UBI!
But, that's exactly the status quo for people with too much income to qualify for food aid who don't spend it well. Why would losing that existing situation unchanged whole improving other areas be a reason to oppose UBI?
Plenty of private charities can exist which you can donate to if you believe your money should be helping those people. A system where some people voluntarily donate has less inequity than a system where all people are forced to donate.
If someone fuck up and use up all their UBI then they must seek private entity such as church or charity.
But if this is your attitude - people who mess up should be on their own - why are you in favour of UBI? Why don’t you also think that people who can’t get a job should be on their own?
I prefer UBI because I can't choose however I want to spend it.
Personally, I recognize that you need some level of money in order to take part in civic society. For example, it's hard to find a job without a mailing address, nice clothes, cosmetic products, and make up. It's also hard to put your time towards finding a job if you can't eat. Thus, in the interest of maximizing economic output and social engagement, we ought to provide enough money for people to be able to afford these things.
If you are able to afford these things, but still mess up... well, I mean, you have freely and without coercion chosen to disengage with society. To these people, I hope they are happy with their choice, but I struggle to see how they could be.
No, obviously not. Removing all individual agency from welfare is simply dehumanizing. Let people make the best decisions for themselves... and get legitimate help (not food stamps) for the people unable to do that.
Dope dealers will not accept food as payment.
>make the best decisions for themselves.
And what about their children? Many of them are poor because they have kids. No one has the individual agency to get high on free money while their kids starve.
So then the question is is the overhead worth that marginal case?
Anarchists believe there ought to be no government at all.
If you can't see the difference still, I would recommend picking up a book. Hacker news is not the place to learn about various political philosophies.
in that world you get to eat only if you are financially responsible. in the current world everyone gets to eat (or we try to feed the hungry)
i think the current model is way more humane. and we will never cancel social programs to have a less humane society
Libertarians want to cancel social programs and replace with UBI so individuals determine how to spend their benefits. Socialists want to guarantee everyone a living wage but also want the safety nets.
Policy needs to be in middle. You need to enable people to self-manage. Must be ready to help them when there is a bad turn events. But you also need to have a humane way to deal with people that are incapable of taking care of themselves, for example mental illness. The way to handle that is guardianship, not other government programs that can also be individually mismanaged. Guardianship will surely be more expensive then UBI but it is the humane thing to do.
On this point, I agree 100%, but UBI programs are not really focused on the mentally ill. As is, disability is a fraction of what we traditionally think of as welfare (and it's already neglected in our current society). Most welfare are food stamps, health services, etc, for people that would otherwise be perfectly capable on their own.
A UBI does not mean getting rid of programs for people that cannot actually help themselves like the severely disabled or foster children. It means not treating grown adults like children or wards of the state
So I totally agree that the Libertarian perspective is not to TELL (force) ME to spend my money on UBI
Yes, it does, in the same way that any other income already does, which is why those all tend to be means-tested programs.
> you will still have to have them.
No, you won't, once the UBI level is above the income level at which the programs would not be available.
A basic income can eliminate many wasteful bureaucratic policies, leaving more money to spend on what folks want.
Of course the real question is whether doing this would allow you to actually simplify anything, or if it's possible to simplify taxes with only minor (or desired) changes in net income.
No, you would repeal all existing social and welfare programs, the minimum wage and employer healthcare, and replace them with a bare minimal UBI.
At least in the US, there is no other implementation that would be palatable to conservatives, business and most voters.
How about the homeless in (any super expensive city that still won’t be able to afford housing there, yet for whatever reason won’t leave?
No, we’ll STILL need safety nets even with UBI.
But it lessens the burden on all of them.
UBI is a convenient way for the wealthy classes to wash their hands of the poor without having to give up too much of their wealth. Not to mention it will probably be provided by a government donor corporation in the form of a cashless card with moralistic restrictions on how the income can be spent (e.g. no alcohol or legal cannabis).