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Comment by bcatanzaro | Hacker News Reader

I'm much more enthusiastic about plant-based foods than insects. The impossible burger is pretty fantastic - there's no cultural barrier to overcome, and I expect it's even better for the planet than crickets.

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> The impossible burger

This is a wheat and potato proteins based burger, where they add leghemoglobin grown in yeast, to give some of that bloody, irony taste. And coconut oil for fat.

If you're in New York City area or New Jersey, or Chicago area, your nearest White Castle probably has the "impossible slider" for $1.99.

Very cool. I hadn't heard about them at White Castle. Nice to know.

Fatburger has also started to serve Impossible Burgers. Interestingly at our local Fatburger the price was the same $6 for either a regular Fatburger or for an "Impossible" Fatburger. The way I see it, either way, it's a Fatburger. Fatburger.

So does Wahlburger.

Full Ingredient List: Water, Textured Wheat Protein, Coconut Oil, Potato Protein, Natural Flavors, 2% or less of: Leghemoglobin (Soy), Yeast Extract, Salt, Konjac Gum, Xanthan Gum, Soy Protein Isolate, Vitamin E, Vitamin C, Thiamin (Vitamin B1), Zinc, Niacin, Vitamin B6, Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Vitamin B12

Give me that rather than icky bugs!

As a side note, I've often pondered what would have the outcome if Subway had 'leaned in' and actually promoted its "50% chicken-50% soy but tastes the same as 100% chicken" as an environmentally sustainable and healthier option instead of trying to hide it and then getting caught.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/03/food-scientists-weig...

"there's no cultural barrier to overcome"

There is indeed a cultural barrier in the United States when it comes to vegetarian diets. Many Americans avoid "fake meat" due to their cultural beliefs.

Yeah, but you won't find any Americans that avoid eating things made of plants. You will definitely find Americans that avoid eating things made of bugs.

as a european living in America I would somewhat disagree

I've had more than one colleague who modifies anything on a menu until it's mostly meat, carbs & cheese

Carbs in the colloquial sense are still plant based - disregarding the comparative traces of carbs in animal products.

Many Americans avoid eating things made out of plants. For example, tofu or veggie burgers. Like I said, this is a cultural phenomenon, similar to but less severe than the cultural proclivity to avoid eating insects.

Though many Americans don't seem to mind eating snails.

I eat tofu quite often, but I don't eat fake meat. If I want meat, I buy meat. I don't like the idea of plant protein being tortured until it resembles a completely different product.

Funny use of words, avoiding figuratively "tortured" plant proteins and instead opting for literally tortured animals.

> "Many Americans avoid "fake meat" due to their cultural beliefs."

Can you elaborate on this? Downthread you mention not eating tofu or veggie burgers is due to avoidance of plants. This seems a peculiar way to phrase it. While many Americans probably don't get enough fresh vegetables and fruits, many still do include various vegetables and fruits and grains in their diets. While I do agree that it's culture in the sense that diet does tend to be cultural, "avoidance of plants" or "avoidance of fake meat" due to cultural beliefs seems a particularly odd phrasing. Culinary customs might be better? (I'm trying anemically to think of some parallel characterization of another cultural group, but doing so seems unhelpful.)

I'm surprised this is at all controversial.

Many Americans believe that vegetarianism and veganism are wrong and even offensive belief systems. The foods those people eat instead of meat are part of this wrong belief system, and no 'normal' person who doesn't believe in that system would want to eat those foods. Tofu and veggie burgers being the two biggest offenders.

In my experience, people outside of the big metro areas are not at all shy about sharing the above perspective.

Source: I lived in the Midwest as a vegetarian.

> "Many Americans believe that vegetarianism and veganism are wrong and even offensive belief systems."

These are really strong words. You're also now conflating people who aren't vegetarian with a general dislike of plant food. Someone can be an omnivore and include a lot of plants in their diet. I think most people also think that including plant-based foods in their diet is a good thing (and wish they did more of), even if it's not something they do in their everyday diet.

I've heard of people disagree with strong moralistic positions for vegetarianism/veganism and think strident/militant vegetarians/vegans are "kooky" and are put off by them, but this is due to the stridency, militant, and evangelical nature of those expressing such positions rather than something inherent in vegetarianism/veganism. I can't recall every hearing someone express that vegetarianism is offensive. I've heard people express that vegetarian/vegan diets don't provide full nutrition, so in that sense they think it's wrong, but that's much different from thinking it's morally wrong or offensive.

Sure, you'll get people who aren't tolerant of others viewpoints, but that's generally due to intolerance in general (and on many sides and issues), rather than something inherent in the particular position. And when someone is perceived to have a chip on their shoulder, there's always someone who just wants to push it off for no other reason than that it's there.

You can use "many Americans" to mean many things: there's a lot of people in America, so even a small percentage sharing a particular belief is going to be a lot of people. If you have numbers to support your views, I'd be interested in hearing them. To my reading, you may be particularly sensitive on this issue and in at least some cases reading more into some behavior and statements than may be warranted.

Have a black bean burger and some tempeh on me!

If you're with a group of people at a restaurant that you don't know well and someone says they're gluten free, nobody bats an eye. Even though there's a good chance they're just on a fad diet.

If someone can't eat pork due to their beliefs, same story.

If someone mentions that they're vegetarian/vegan though, guaranteed someone will ask them why and question their beliefs. They'll probably get defensive and state that they could never give up eating steak/bacon/misc flesh, as if the vegetarian is trying to take that away from them.

I disagree that it's guaranteed, but even if that is the case, what you describe here is a far cry from Many Americans believe that vegetarianism and veganism are wrong and even offensive belief systems, Many Americans avoid "fake meat" due to their cultural beliefs, and Many Americans avoid eating things made out of plants. People may question vegetarianism and veganism while these statements can still be false.

> Many Americans avoid "fake meat" due to their cultural beliefs.

Would you order a dish prepared with fake avocado and fake olive oil? If you are happy to eat the genuine product, why would you choose to eat an imitation, barring poverty or lack of availability?

You're abusing the word "fake". Is coconut oil fake olive oil? Just two different substances serving similar purposes, much in the way mushrooms are sometimes used in dishes the way meat might be used. You could call that "fake meat"... or just call it mushrooms.

You used the term "fake meat" in the comment I replied to, I repeated it. I'm a meat eater and of course that doesn't mean I won't order or eat mushrooms. It means I'm unlikely to purchase Morning Star Farms soy-based "Bacon Strips", or other meat imitation products. This is not because of a "cultural belief" it's because I don't have a need to avoid genuine bacon, so why would I buy a soy substitute/imitation?

So would you order a dish with imitation avocado made of soy protein and canola oil?

That's partly because the experience mostly is that they don't taste very satisfying. If I ever tasted vegetarian food that satisfied me the same way bacon or beef does, I'd happily eat more of it. Not ever gotten anywhere close, though.

So I don't think it's so much cultural beliefs as it is experience, coupled with exactly the idea that it is "fake", and coupled with a stereotype of smug vegetarian eating food that people don't expect to taste very nice for ideological reasons. It's associated with choosing away nice tasting food, basically.

Reducing the meat content and adding more of various substitutes would probably work a lot better to change habits than trying to get people to pick vegetarian food, and open the door for cutting more later.

i agree that the taste and texture are similar to eating a meat hamburger. but, i just hope these companies (Impossible Burger, Beyond Burger, et al) can bring down the price.

we bought frozen Beyond Burgers recently "on sale" from our local grocery store for $3.00 per 4 oz burger. good quality ground beef is cheaper than that.

Where are you finding good quality ground beef for <$3.00/lb?

Good quality, to me, implies the animals were not mistreated, were fed a reasonable (preferably grain free) diet, the farm is sustainably ranching the animals it grows, etc.

I recently bought a whole beef from a local farmer, and it was organic, 100% grass fed, and it worked out to $7/lb. I'd be shocked to learn there was a waaay cheaper option out there.

sorry for the confusion. a frozen package containing just two 4 oz Beyond Burger patties cost us $6.00. i.e. we paid $3.00 for each one quarter pound Beyond Burger.

so, if you can find hamburger meat for less than $12 a pound, you're paying less than we paid for Beyond Burgers.

This would reverse overnight in the US if we redirected our agricultural subsidies.

You can buy pasture-raised / grass-fed ground beef from Australia, and US-raised ground bison, in US supermarkets for $9-10 per pound, so no, it wouldn't. Even for cheap corn- and soy-fed CAFO-raised meat, agricultural subsidies lower the cost by a negligeable fraction.

hmmm. my comment was down voted. i'm wondering if someone might be able to offer some explanatory notes about that. not sure what was offensive about it.

You would need to quantify what you mean by better for the planet. The number of insects, worms, rodents, frogs, and other small animals destroyed by mechanized farming is staggering. Also, I have had the impossible burger and was not at all impressed, though it looks absolutely perfect.

Given what it takes to turn vegetable mass into something resembling a burger, if it came down to it, I'd rather stick to real vegetables.

I think its fair to say that processed food is generally not very good for you. I don't see why that situation is improved because the food being processed is from a vegan source.

I think we have to evaluate each processed food on its own merits rather than just saying there’s a negative correlation.

> I don't see why that situation is improved because the food being processed is from a vegan source.

my favorite example of this is the plastic package of organic vegan marshmallows i saw at Whole Foods once

> my favorite example of this is the plastic package of organic vegan marshmallows i saw at Whole Foods once

Is this funny because of all the non-vegan marshmallows that come in non-plastic packaging, making the vegan ones worse for the environment? Any change has to be weighed against the actual alternatives.

the alternative i was thinking of was non-processed food.

but, ok, good point point about the packaging. almost every fruit and vegetable from a supermarket's produce section ends up in a plastic bag.

Processed food always being bad is an oversimplification. Try having eating a raw potato sometime and you'll see what I mean (seriously don't they are toxic). Cooking is a basic form of processing to make the foods nutrition actually processable or processable more efficiently. The 'processing' most associated with the term are optimized for taste and shelf life often at the expense of nutrition or too much of a good thing. For instance protein - it is held up as a holy grail 'good nutrient' but it turns out that going too high is bad for the kidneys and thus general health. That isn't unique to processed foods either - Steve Job's fruit based diet put Ashton Kutcher in the hospital with pancreatic issues when he tried it for getting into character!

Past failures at making something more healthy have failed to measure an additional variable - say margarine being better before a sufficient understanding of transfats and back when they thought all cholesterol was the same.

I mean that eating plants directly likely emits less carbon and takes up less land than processing plants through cricket bodies.

And I eat the impossible burger often. I like it a lot.

Animals require much more feed in than you get usable meat out. Meat production increases the amount of plants you need to farm so even though plant agriculture is bad for the environment generally the best way to actually reduce it is to eat less meat.

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