British divers make contact with missing Thai football team
theguardian.com
theguardian.com
Found this from a Bill Whitehouse:
Bill Whitehouse, vice-chair of the British Cave Rescue Council which is helping the rescue efforts, played down speculation the boys could be taught to dive.
Speaking to BBC Radio 4’s Today programme he suggested they could be guided through the water in “packages”.
Asked how feasible it would be to teach the children to dive, he said: “It is certainly not easy. The other alternative is that you literally bring them out in packages. In other words you fit them with diving equipment: a full face mask, instead of having a gag in your mouth like a lot of divers use; package them up; put the correct weights on them so that they are neutrally bouyant and are not going to get stuck again. It has been done before.”
He also explained how the British divers reached the trapped group.
They were diving upstream in the system so they were having to swim against the current,
or pull themselves along the walls. Some of the cave is fairly constricted and other points
aren’t. I gather the actual diving section was about 1.5km, about half of which was
completely flooded and about half of which was open.
They estimated that a round trip to where the party was and back again is probably about three hours.
I know nothing about that cave, but passages between caves can be connected by tight restrictions. They might have crawled they way up. And now that restriction is flooded.
Even a semi experienced diver is far less aware of all their apparatus than a human who has been crawling around things since birth
And DIY versions abound: https://hackaday.com/2017/07/02/the-almost-working-diy-under...
> Narongsak explained that the divers had fixed rope lines along the passageway and distributed oxygen tanks along their route, allowing them to advance through the exceptionally narrow passageway unencumbered by bulky equipment.
The (extremely skilled) divers aren't wearing tanks due to how narrow some parts of the passage are. Using a thruster in a cramped environment is not a silver bullet.
It comes out later that the group frequent this cave many time before.
As one of the rescuers said, "When it starts raining the flow is so hard you can barely swim against it." - and that's a pro diver, imagine how would it be for a boy who didn't even know how to swim and thus doesn't have the relevant muscles trained. It's also narrow enough so that only one person can fit through, so you can't have the divers guide them by hand, only accompany them behind them.
I think they would have them tied to a rope between divers, so that one of them can pull (gently, in narrow areas) and the other can guide the package to prevent it from scratching the rocks.
Then our dive master reached out and pushed her down a foot, and suddenly her tank could clear the top. From her perspective she kept swimming lower, but that was counteracted by buoyancy and she couldn't tell, with every failed attempt reducing her mental capacity to figure it out.
Fight or flight is not the reflex we need in diving, but it is the reflex we have.
> They were diving upstream in the system so they were having to swim against the current, or pull themselves along the walls. Some of the cave is fairly constricted and other points aren’t. I gather the actual diving section was about 1.5km, about half of which was completely flooded and about half of which was open. They estimated that a round trip is 3 hours.
Also, one detail that CNN got that I didn't see in this article: it seems the cave is one kilometer underground! [1]
EDIT 1: The CNN article partially answers my first question: "Rescuers will also pump air into the cave to improve conditions."
EDIT 2: Another important bit here [2]: "It won't be anything like diving that most people recognize. It will be diving in what is effectively muddy water, possibly fast flowing, with no sense of direction," Moret said. "You can't tell what's up, down, sideways."
[1] https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/02/asia/thai-cave-rescue-intl/in...
[2] https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/03/asia/thai-rescue-next-phase-i...
Me: Just drop me a gun...I'm claustrophobic and I'd rather die once.
Was there a worldwide competition for the worst place to put these kids, or what?
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/201...
Airbells, which are small air pockets in an otherwise flooded section are relatively unusual, and from the video footage it looked like the football team had climbed up into a larger Fossil gallery overlying the current (active) flooded section. Hopefully this means they will also be well protected from any future more extreme flooding.
These little stream inlets form a source of drinking water. Even when the main cave river is a turbid mess, there's normally plenty of clean little streams coming in - some of which will be fed by percolation water (seeping through rock) and therefore effectively 'mineral' water.
Often when journalists describe caves in the press, 'one kilometer underground' would be better described as 'one kilometer into' the cave. Certainly the cave doesn't look very deep, most river caves form fairly horizontally.
For digging into or exploring from above, what matters much more is how thick the rock is above them (or above a chamber that they can reach), and what it's made out of.
Locating them on the surface (i.e. figuring out where to start digging) will also be a challenge - most caves are not surveyed with a high degree of accuracy, and doing so through a flooded, flowing, low-visibility section is extremely difficult. (One of the rescue divers, John Volanthen, has done some pretty amazing stuff with a water-proof data-logging accelerometer + flux compass in this area - the "Lazy Boy Sump Mapper".) They will probably dive a radio beacon into the cave + then use that to locate the party, combined with a (dry) survey within the cave to figure out the extent of the available space to the survivors.
Radio comms should be setup quite soon - one system which may be of general interest to the Hackernews community is the cave-link: http://www.cavelink.com/cl3x_neu/index.php/en/ It has a lot of automation + resending / checksumming of messages to enable transmission over the very low bandwidth and noisy VLF channel through hundreds of metres of rock.
Most cave systems are relatively permeable. Even if you can't see a route out, there are likely to be paths for air movement.
The immediate threat is the accumulation of carbon dioxide rather than a deficit of oxygen. Fresh air is about 0.04% CO2, but most caves have ambient CO2 levels of over 1% and some as high as 6%. You'll start feeling quite unwell above 4%, violently ill above 7% and there's a risk of seizures, unconsciousness and death above 10%. Normal air is about 21% oxygen, you can cope perfectly well on about 16% oxygen and survive on as little as 10% oxygen.
The boys seem alert and in reasonably good spirits, so I'd say that the air in their section of the cave is fairly good.
The ESA, of all groups, has a pretty good write-up on this: http://blogs.esa.int/caves/2014/11/19/the-science-of-caves-e... They use cave exploration for astronaut team-building, process/workflow training, and acculturation.
Also, just a reminder -- they're still not out yet. Thailand's armed forces are still at work trying to figure out a way to get the boys out, given how deep inside the cave they're stuck (more than a kilometer inside). News reports suggest the team and its coach would be getting months' worth of supplies and diving lesson in case water level rises. Very dramatic. [0]
[0] https://www.dw.com/en/thailand-boys-soccer-team-lost-in-cave...
[1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/02/twelve-children-...
Indeed. Reminds me of the Chilean mining incident 8 years ago which had many parallels to the one in Thailand.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Copiap%C3%B3_mining_acc...
I could not do what they have done - not if my life depended on it....
Personally, I think they deserve the very highest honours we can give them as a country.
Too right. I'm a reasonably experienced cave diver, and regularly dive in a system of 11km of intersecting fully-underwater tunnels, with the single entry/exit being a small pond, a few feet across, in a small, underground air-filled cave. I'd typically go 700-800 meters out, with a dozen navigational decisions along the way (left? right? straight ahead?), then have to reverse all that to get back out. But a few years ago I had an MRI, where you're wheeled into a narrow metal tube, on your back, with your arms pinned to your sides, with the tube an inch away from your face. Result: GET ME OUT!! GET ME OUT!! I had to be wheeled back out & take a break, before I could grit my teeth and try again. I absolutely hated it. I told them I was an active cave diver, but I don't think they believed me :-)
Scope doesn't change the phobia.
(as others point out, it's probably the same)
I haven't thought that it's a big deal until actually having to lead into a pretty tight passage without prior information about it.
Although I still don't like being in the high floors of buildings - those Dubai towers give me the honest to god creeps.
Not just a fear, but an unreasonable fear, that limits your ability to operate.
I think a non-phobia would be acknowledging that the danger exists, but also acknowledging its risk (according to the safety of your environment), and your fear rises accordingly (linearly?).
Bravery is fundamentally incompatible with cave diving - if you're taking risks in such a hostile environment, you won't survive. What keeps you alive in an underwater cave is training, caution and meticulous attention to detail.
People who simply aren’t brave just don’t go cave diving.
That’s not to say that skill and consideration aren’t very important, but those guys are still both brave.
Rock climbers drag themselves up a rock face with their bare hands, using a rope to catch them if they fall. Cavers drag themselves up a rope, because avoiding a fall is better than arresting a fall. That's the fundamental difference in culture and attitude between cavers and participants in "extreme sports".
Cavers go into a hazardous environment, but they mitigate those hazards through meticulous planning and preparation. They don't see their activities as inherently dangerous, but technically demanding. If you're taking risks in a cave, you're foolish rather than brave - you're working beyond the limits of your skill and experience.
But there still remains a risk. Just like traffic is dangerous. Also, the thing is, doing the same, safe thing again and again, is boring. You want new experiences, new challenges. Wheter it be a new mountain, or a new cave. But with experience and beeing smart, you can do it quite safely, because you know your limits and the enviroment. But it is never 100% safe. Big rocks can come loose and hit or trap you, or water can come from channels you don't know about. This is life, you can't plan for all events.
I completely disagree. I am a climber, I climb sports, trad and free-solo. Trad requires the most skill in evaluating risk and coping with and rationalising fear (my definition of bravery; conversely doing dangerous things without fear or understanding is not bravery, it's stupidity).
When you place gear on a route you are constantly assessing the capability of the system which affects your trust in falling on it, because not all routes have the same natural quantity, quality or distribution of protection... Bravery comes in all kinds of forms depending on the exact combination of gear and fall potential (what you are falling into), but an obviously valid type of bravery which is easiest to explain here is dealing with _irrational_ fear when you have the experience and skill to know that the system works but has a big fall potential: e.g you have completely solid gear well distributed up the bottom half of a pitch on a sheer or overhanging face with good fall potential, but a hard run-out stretch above with no gear (lets say 1/4 of the bottom half and about 6 meters above protection to make it scary but no groundfall potential), this is safe to fall on, but you will be scared and it will take bravery and experience (experience of how the gear works and knowing how much you can trust it, experience of falling and knowing how to react and what to expect from such a fall).
A more realistic and interesting scenarios are when there is some significant amount of risk, innate fear is very useful here to guide you to the seriousness of a situation, but you need the skill and experience to separate it from the irrational and then manage the "rational" part by responding to it but not letting it control you.
> Cavers go into a hazardous environment, but they mitigate those hazards through meticulous planning and preparation. They don't see their activities as inherently dangerous, but technically demanding. If you're taking risks in a cave, you're foolish rather than brave - you're working beyond the limits of your skill and experience.
I'm not a caver but I doubt any of the cavers involved in this dive would agree that "They don't see their activities as inherently dangerous". There _are_ inherent dangers with this dive, experience and skill allows you to mitigate and manage it and respond to dangers in the best way possible, but there will always be some amount of risk you cannot eradicate, this is where bravery has it's place, it's not about being fearless, it's about being in control and understanding and accepting the potential outcomes.
Yes, skill is required, but actually skill is associated with courage; it is the skill that enables you to assess just how dangerous the activity might be, but it is courage that motivates you to undertake it, in spite of your knowing that no amount of skill can make it every-day-level safe
But as this is not a Hollywood movie, we can use the proper definition:
> Courage (also called bravery or valour) is the choice and willingness
> to confront agony, pain, danger, uncertainty, or intimidation.
> Physical courage is bravery in the face of physical pain, hardship,
> death or threat of death, while moral courage is the ability to act
> rightly in the face of popular opposition, shame, scandal,
> discouragement, or personal loss.
Cave divers are absolutely courageous. And brave. They just aren't reckless. Or foolhardy. To borrow a phrase from mountaineering:
"There are old cave divers. And bold cave divers. But no old and bold cave divers."
Courage on the other hand comes from Old French corage, from Latin cor (heart).
I think based on this the divers are courageous, not brave.
> Courageous behaviour or character.
Just as long as we all agree that cave diving is not about being that ridiculous Hollywood stereotype dude who deliberately breaks all the rules for no damn reason and it works out because he broke all the rules for no damn reason.
For the record the full OED favours the latter root for bravery (bravo < Old Italian braido, brado (wild, savage)). Strange they don't say the same thing.
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/05/asia/thai-cave-diver-intl...
Not one of the Brits as far as I can tell but an ex navy seal.
Looking at some of the photos, lots of the gear they are wearing is ordinary recreational gear - nothing like what an experienced cave diver would use. So it raises the question, in my mind, as to whether their navy seals actually do have any formal training in advanced cave diving. Combat diving is unlikely to be the same thing.
So the very unfortunate incident might actually support my previous comment, not contradict it. Cave diving is very dangerous to the untrained or improperly equipped. But proper training and equipment can mitigate those dangers. The two brits would not have been wearing anything like the kind of gear in the photos :-(
Again, kudos to the people on the spot, doing their best.
For their sake I hope nothing happens to those British guys, but if it does you'd better find a quiet spot somewhere.
For some background: the diver that died ran out of oxygen after leaving the maximum of oxygen in the cave (where it is dropping).
You: the two Brits were risking their lives.
Me: Not really, they'd have been following standard cave diving safety protocols.
You (effectively): Well, a Navy Seal just died, so that proves that it's dangerous.
Me: There's evidence that the Navy Seals weren't trained cave divers - they certainly didn't seem to be equipped as such - so all it proves is that cave diving is dangerous to those without specific training and/or proper equipment - navy seals or otherwise.
You: you'll change your tune if one of the brits dies!
W-T-F?
Here's a short list of how the diving equipment in some of the photos is absolutely noncompliant with proper cave diving equipment. This implies to me that they are not trained cave divers, and consequently, the risks they unknowingly took were enormously greater than the risks the two brits took:
(1) Single tanks! Fine in recreational diving, because if something goes wrong with your air supply (tank valve fails, hose bursts, regulator falls apart, whatever), you can go to your buddy for air, or at worst, bolt to the surface. No good in cave diving, where there isn't any air at the surface, and your buddy might be 20 meters away at the other end of a tight restriction. So all cave divers use twin tanks. We also follow gas management rules designed to let us survive the following two scenarios: (a) At the point of maximum penetration, you get separated from your buddy, and simultaneously, one of your two tanks completely fails; and (b) at the point of maximum penetration, you're still with your buddy, but both of your (or his) two tanks fail. Diving on a single tank is fundamentally noncompliant with all those standard safety protocols.
(2) Hoses curving out around their heads. These are common in recreational diving, but a serious entanglement hazard in cave diving. Cave divers route all their hoses tight-in, to reduce entanglement risks. This is especially important in low or no visibility diving. No properly trained cave diver would leave the house with hose routing like that in some of those photos. Even if an experienced cave diver was forced to use that gear by circumstance or in a dire emergency, she'd fix that up before she got in the water.
(3) K-valves! The top of each tank has a valve, onto which you attach the first stage pressure reduction regulator. Those valves come in two styles: K-valves, and DIN valves. Each style has a rubber O-ring to seal the regulator onto the valve. With K-valves, the O-ring can squeeze out, causing the attachment to fail. That's rare, but can happen. Bad luck if you're a kilometre into the cave - on a single tank - with your buddy at the other end of the restriction!! With DIN valves, the O-ring is trapped entirely within the valve body, so it can't pop out. For that reason, few if any properly trained cave divers would use K-valves.
(4) Funky hand held torches! They probably throw a nice wide beam, which is good for recreational dives. But cave divers need narrow beams (to cut through the murk, and facilitate signalling); with multi-hour durations, and hands-free attachments so you can use that hand for other tasks.
In summary, someone who is an experienced brain surgeon, gets into a Formula One car, prangs it, and kills himself. To me, that doesn't say much about the safety of properly trained and qualified Formula One drivers.
But you say that the death of a person, who may have had zero formal training in cave diving, says something about the safety risks the two brits took? Perhaos two of the most experienced expedition cave divers in the world?
I think you do not understand the issues. I don't intend to reply again.
You can make it sound like it isn't by hauling in everything and the kitchen sink in terms of technology but that does not change the ground rules.
In the meantime, with all your knowledge and background you're armchair quarterbacking a rescue operation that is most likely doing what can be done given the tools at hand.
So the people that are doing this are doing it because they feel they have to, because they feel the lives of those kids matter to them even if they have only potential downside for themselves.
That we are even having this discussion is beyond bizarre.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: it looks like you've been making a habit of being uncivil to other commenters on HN (for example https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17435527). We ban accounts that can't or won't stop doing this, so would you please not do it anymore?
update: they are surrounded by water which gets contaminated by their excrements. not good.
And even if there was a chance of diarrhoea, what would be your alternative?
Apparently there is water seeping into the space they are in. I'd drink that before I'd drink the inundation water.
Because they have to go too.
Here is an article from Cambodia, where they are some years behind: https://medium.com/make-a-difference/bringing-clean-water-to...
Thanks for the inside info. But do they brush their teeth with bottled water? Do they wash their dishes, tomatoes with bottled water or with "dirty" tap water?
Sarcasm aside, I'm sure it varies from place to place, but in places I've been to in Thailand (and I live half there, half EU), tap water is fine for washing/brushing and if anything, too chlorinated (and thus not too drinkable). I still drink bottled water (or filtered water; many local friends have filters installed to their tap).
Ouch
> Trying to take non-divers through a cave is one of the most dangerous situations possible, even if the dives are relatively easy. That also begets the question: if the dives are difficult then supply will be difficult, but the risk of trying to dive them out is also exponentially greater
A BBC article said it could be months, much less weeks. It's the beginning of the rainy season.
I have to imagine that the dangers of cave diving are multiplicative - you don't get enough skill-based improvement from any given trip into/out to make repeated trips a safe option.
The highest capacity pumps in New Orleans can move roughly 10,000 gallons a second, but they require a supply "hose" that's ~8-10 feet in diameter to reach that volume. You'd need to get an enormous hose to a low point of the cave system, which may not be near the entrance.
Then there's the question of what to do with the water you pump out. Maybe there's a river nearby that can absorb it?
It is doable, but it's neither simple, not particularly quick.
That was also a case where someone with no prior experience as a diver had to be extracted from a situation otherwise requiring some fairly advanced dive training. From the article:
> The rescuing divers fitted Okene with a diving helmet so he could breathe while being transferred into a closed diving bell and returned to the surface for decompression from saturation. Okene lost consciousness during the transfer.
According to the BBC[2] they'll probably end up doing something similar to extract those kids. They'd need to drag them over a long distance (probably one at a time) as "dead weight", but this method wouldn't require them to learn any diving skills.
> The Thai authorities have appealed for donations of full-face scuba diving masks small enough to fit the boys in order to reduce the risk of their breathing apparatus coming loose as they travel through flooded passageways.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquanaut#Accidental_aquanaut
Narongsak explained that the divers had fixed rope lines along the passageway and distributed oxygen tanks along their route, allowing them to advance through the exceptionally narrow passageway unencumbered by bulky equipment. Other teams worked to pump out floodwater and divert groundwater, he said.
In such situations it's best to go with the simplest solution you know will work and people are trained for, instead of trying to get fancy and possibly endanger the whole undertaking (imagine a robot getting stuck somewhere and blocking the way for everyone...).
I don't know anything about that cave, but it's quite common for cave divers to remove their equipment (and put it in front of them) because a passage is so small that the diver and a gas tank won't fit at the same time. What's the chance of a robot doing the same?
Many underwater cave entrances are marked with a stark warning sign bearing an image of the grim reaper, imploring the diver to "prevent your death - go no farther". Underwater caves can be enticing to divers, but entering one without the correct training and equipment is extraordinarily dangerous. Hundreds of scuba divers have swum into an inviting-looking cave with crystal clear water, then turned around to see a wall of darkness from the silt they have kicked up; very few have lived to tell the tale.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distance_line
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp-content/up...
How realistic would it be to drill a more convenient entrance from above?
Basically, there is a warning sign for cave flooding during July and October. Monsoon season is not likely to start at the end of June so they might thought it is still be fine to go into the cave.
Great idea to take them down into a flooded cave in rainy season. Even though now found, they will still be very lucky to get out alive. How? I think it is the case of learn to swim and dive right down there or die.
Whatever was their coach thinking?
Disclaimer: my mother is from the region (Mae Chan is only few kms away from the cave, which is in Mae Sai) and she wasn't surprised with the fact that they went in.
I actually find comments like yours really grating. Blaming people for situations largely beyond their control is not productive or helpful, especially when ended with inflammatory questioning designed to provoke.
There may be plenty of blame to go around, but I don't think blaming an inexperienced caver is very useful.
If my comment was designed to provoke, then it was to provoke people to think. We need to be able to think for ourselves sometimes.
I actually find your comment somewhat unhelpful and grating. It is all very well everyone being a hero and never admitting to any wrong decisions but that is exactly the sort of attitude that leads to these situations and to their repetition. If nobody has done anything wrong, there is nothing to learn.
This may or may not be true, or could be somewhere in between. But it specifically does not, and actually actively pushes against finding a solution that ensures this never happens again.
By blaming someone for an error instead of the system that allowed, encouraged and enabled them to make that error you end up not solving anything, and the same problems crop up again, and again.
It's quite common to see non-drivers saying this kind of non-sense.
I have more than 150 dives and even with wreck training and experience I would never, never, never do cave diving. It's ridiculous dangerous, even for experienced cave divers. Without visibility and training, people die. Experienced cave divers get panic attacks and die. It's hard to control someone during a panic attack in open waters, in confined environment it might be even impossible. Divers in panic are also a hazard for other divers.
That said, consider taking an untrained kid in an environment they have no experience with for three hours.
My bet is that they will not make them dive. I wouldn't be surprised if they are talking about diving lessons only to buy time and keep them occupied and give them hope;
Unless plan A (pump the water out) and plan B (wait until September ends) becomes a non-option (due to emergencies), they won't swim/dive they way out.
Somehow I do not see keeping them there till September, with water levels possibly rising further, as much of an option either.
It's far too early to assume that only the most dangerous option is an option at all.
Care to retract your comment?