Taiwan’s Technology Secrets Come Under Assault from China | Hacker News Reader

Taiwan’s Technology Secrets Come Under Assault from China

wsj.com

130 pointspeter_retief59 comments

US, South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, and Europe really needs to form a coalition that would put pressure on Chinese government-sponsored companies blatant hacking attacks/stealing technologies, either by taking steps to reduce Chinese government investments in crucial technologies, punish Chinese firms like Huawei via sanctions, or put massive tariffs on China like US is doing. China is a very bad actor in the world.

Some readings: How Chinese hacking felled telecommunication giant Nortel https://www.afr.com/technology/web/security/how-chinese-hack.... China-based hackers burrow inside satellite, defense, and telecoms firms https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/06/china...

If podcasts are more your speed, I'd recommend Bloomberg's Odd Lots with Dan Wang, which talks about China's 2025 plan.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-21/this-is-c...

We should start banning importation of products containing stolen technologies. And companies that use stolen technologies and their CEOs should be banned from Western markets.

Then Apple products are banned in China tomorrow and Apple loses half its value.

Let’s see how that goes. ;)

To a compromise? How do you think it will go if we do nothing?

The multinational conglomerates who own all manufacturing and research become Chinese in name only instead of American in name only (or is it Irish this week?)

Well, Apple also employs millions of Chinese works indirectly through their suppliers. I think the last thing the Chinese gov't wants is a large number of unemployed young males.

Well Apple is fucked, US enters depression. China economy collapses utterly. Xi does not live too long before he either enacts Stalin/Mao level purges or gets shot himself.

That's how the current patent/trade system works. If it turns out there are products made without proper IP licensing, the USITC can ban importation of infringing goods.

Nobody actually cares about any of this. And no country is going to form any sort of coalition with the US right now.

It’s just shifting power centers and really all comes down to corporate profits.

> Nobody actually cares about any of this... It’s just shifting power centers and really all comes down to corporate profits.

Europe has made this mistake before. Appeasing a totalitarian, expansionist dictator works well, abruptly to the point at which it doesn't.

To be clear, this is an attack on the sovereignty of a fully democratic nation with a population the size of Australia's.

Some things are more precious than "corporate profits".

I wonder if we could apply this kind of reasoning to the shift of economic and cultural power in the US from the Northeast to the West and South? While not engaging in military expansion and classic totalitarianism, much of the intelligentsia of the West seems to be down with cultural, media, and corporate authoritarian tactics.

The US used to run rampant over other's intellectual property in the 1800's. As far as I know, that didn't involve much industrial espionage. China is exploiting its sovereignty to enable industrial espionage over computer networks without consequences. The strategic solution is to raise the cost of this activity. Maybe one of the best things Microsoft could do, would be to implement a suite of future products providing 1) iron clad application sandboxing 2) all executable content requiring digital signature. Follow this up with aggressive use of honeypots and poison pills.

> The US used to run rampant over other's intellectual property in the 1800's

That's a common myth. One person, samuel slater, memorized the designs of textile factory machinery as an apprentice to a pioneer in the British industry before migrating to the United States at the age of 21. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Slater US didn't steal anything using Samuel Slater.

I haven't heard of any other examples of US stealing intellectual properties in 1800. Plus, that's over 200 years ago. Would you like to bring up the something more recent?

I haven't heard of any other examples of US stealing intellectual properties in 1800.

In the 1800's, not in 1800.

https://creativelawcenter.com/dickens-american-copyright/

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2013-02-01/piracy-an...

A somewhat nuanced discussion of the above:

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130228/01324622146/yes-u...

For a more localized version, the entire existence of Hollywood happened because the industry wanted to avoid Edison's patent enforcement, and it was hard to enforce lawsuits on the other side of the country.

For me it's not really the IP theft, and more the lack of an equal playing field for foreign companies in China. If foreign companies can't get the same effective rights as local ones do, then those other countries should give the same restrictions to chinese companies in their locales.

This is also something of a myth. There was a trust (that Edison was part of) which monopolized film production, but by the time Hollywood was ramping up their patents had already expired. They were really enforcing their monopoly through price and supply controls. The cartel was ultimately broken by antitrust litigation, not IP piracy.

Windows S sounds like this initiative. (People don't like who has to provide the signature)

There is no stopping China in the information age. Someone said "information wants to be free". That was 35 years ago. China will catch up to the west whether it is by stealing, acquiring or of their own accord. As long as the west think it is a better idea to focus on real estate, finance and service jobs we won't even keep up. South Korea, Taiwan and Japan almost completely missed the Internet. And frankly so did most of Europe and the US. European manufacturers have been moving their factories, if not to China, to Eastern Europe for years. While Midea, a large Chinese appliance manufacturer, just bought Kuka last year. They are now apparently adapting all their products to be made by robots. It is just completely different trajectories.

> There is no stopping China in the information age.

Says who?

> Someone said "information wants to be free". That was 35 years ago.

China's great firewall will disagree with that statement

> China will catch up to the west whether it is by stealing, acquiring or of their own accord

Not if you safeguard your secrets, plus their own crashing economy will stop the catching up part

>>Not if you safeguard your secrets, plus their own crashing economy will stop the catching up part

Long term you can't. China will offer $10 million, $100 million or even a Billion to the person that knows /has access to everything. Add blackmail to really entice him /her. China really needs this tech, as per the article they're spending more on importing chips than oil. Add potential actions, ala ZTE, and it becomes a matter of their NAT SEC. Nothing is spared...

> Says who?

I just did.

> China's great firewall will disagree with that statement

Not really. The firewall isn't really stopping anyone. The reason Chinese people are unconvinced about the west isn't because they don't know about it. It isn't North Korea. It is because China is providing their own narrative. They have their own culture, services, infrastructure and increasingly opportunities. Sure, part of that dampening other narratives. But they are ultimately succeeding because they are making progress themselves.

> Not if you safeguard your secrets

How are you going to safeguard your secrets when, not only is it increasingly hard, but the utility of information is often also only as great as the amount of people knowing about it? A significant part of the industry (in the west) is foreigners to begin with.

> plus their own crashing economy will stop the catching up part

People have been saying that for years. Maybe it will happen. But there is also nothing saying half of the western technology industry won't go down with a recession and subsequent housing market crash in San Francisco, Stockholm, London etc.

"But there is also nothing saying half of the western technology industry won't go down with a recession and subsequent housing market crash in San Francisco, Stockholm, London etc."

What do you mean by recession? Depression? The west can survive a huge recession. Can Xi and his regime? I have doubts. Let me make a prediction. Xi will go down as one of the biggest failures in China. Mark my words!

If someone stands up to him, maybe, but as long as there's a bit of extra margin to be made and improved quarterly numbers to grab that higher bonus, Western executives will sell out to China every day of the week, and Xi knows it. He also know he can manipulate American public opinion by using their hatred for Trump against them.

Its easy to come up with a pro-western theory, I'll start believing in the impotent China narrative when I see some sign of it in observable reality.

It's not about stopping China. It is, or at least should be, about establishing norms with which we can all work together globally.

as soon as China surpasses or closes the gap with the West using all means necessary , they will ask to talk...to establish norms

I think stopping China would be a very noble goal. I don't want them to set a precedent that a dictatorship leads to long lasting success. Unfortunately, China is a big market. And as long as there's money to be made no one really cares.

I can see any of them form a coalition as long as it doesn't involve the US ( because of Trump), could be better in 2 years though, when trust comes back.

PS. For the ones downvoting, at least say why and where you live.

PS2. Belgium (EU) and work for a Canadian company

There are tons of other country that had the chance to "steal" technology, it's only China that really puts hard work and effort to manufacture it to a product, and drop into market.

That's a big part of what the TPP was.

I think China has proven that for developing world to really develop, they should employ the same tactic. The real monopoly of developed world is in technology, and there is no way any poor country can catch up. Poor countries will always just be some 'market' unless they do something to save themselves. And when robot technology really takes off, poor country will have 'zero' chance of getting out of their situation again, they are going to be in deep trouble.

Taiwan may end up in a difficult spot in the coming decades unless they embrace production of distinctive (non-commoditized, like "iPhone" vs. "generic smartphone") consumer brands, or step up their efforts in software.

Its current strengths are in the stuff that exists inside the products we use every day. Think semiconductors and other hardware components. However, that know-how is being commoditized rapidly. China is catching up. Japanese multinationals like Sony are also eyeing the same, gradually stepping away from competing on low-margin consumer products.

For Taiwanese consumer electronics, you have brands like HTC, ASUS, Acer, or even a niche newcomer Gogoro (electric scooters). Sizeable, but not agile enough to take on players like Xiaomi.

And the software scene is unfortunately not very bustling despite the government's repeated efforts to pour money into startup hubs and coworking spaces. This is what Taiwan's #1 online shopping portal looks like [1]

[1] https://shopping.pchome.com.tw/

"Brain drain" to China and the US compounds some of these challenges. Very low salaries may be in part to blame here -- an engineer in Taiwan may make an equivalent of about $40k USD/year, while a home still costs as much as it does in Palo Alto.

That just looks like a different aesthetic. Much like Korea and Japan[1]; they could make minimalist webpages in the Western style, but they choose not to.

[1] https://randomwire.com/why-japanese-web-design-is-so-differe... and https://www.translatemedia.com/translation-blog/website-desi... and http://digitalcommunications.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/2016/03/03/... and so on

It's not the high information density on the home page (common in Asia) but the overall web design style and functionality. The site was developed over a decade ago and has many interesting bits. For example, the "show me the product I ordered" page brings you to a captured JPG screenshot of the product listing.

And product listing pages look something like this:

https://24h.pchome.com.tw/prod/DSAM2L-A9007SS3R

Contrast/compare with these main players in China:

http://www.jd.com/

http://tmall.com/

http://taobao.com/

Is this just a different aesthetic too http://live.pchome.com.tw/liver_form_predb.php?live_no=L1711...

> This is what Taiwan's #1 online shopping portal looks like

I'm guessing that this opinion won't be popular here, but that is much better looking than things like Material Design. Except for the animated GIFs, I would prefer that shopping portal style without hesitation.

Your preference doesn't mean it is not outdated.

Good UIs don't need to change every few years.

Is China catching up? Last time I checked, TSMC was still a few nodes ahead of any Chinese fab.

Realistically, Taiwan can't stop it. The language barrier is zero, and the number of Taiwanese living in China is just off-the-charts.

The truth they might have to ultimately face, is that China is too close to them and way bigger. There might be a way to keep balance in between within their means, but to think they can ignore/prevent Chinese influence is just fantasy.

[1] is an interesting recent article, sketching the mainland's multi-pronged strategy for taking over Taiwan.

[1] https://sentinel.tw/china-threatens-essence-taiwans-statehoo...

I've always felt that the obsession that the Chinese government has with Taiwan has a lot to do with the CCP still being butthurt over the escape of the Nationalists after the Chinese Civil War. They essentially never achieved complete victory over the Kuomintang. I wonder if the CCP were no longer governing China whether there would be such a focus on re-annexing Taiwan.

That's a big part of it. Another big, enduring part is that Taiwan is living proof that Chinese culture and democracy mix perfectly well (something the CCP tries to deny) and a living body of culturally Chinese people who have experience with democratic governance. In other words, it's a big looming legitimacy boulder sitting above the CCP's head -- they fear every day that it will break off and fall.

I agree, I think that's the main issue.

Not dissimular to Saudia Arabia vs Iran: the latter -- however imperfect a democracy -- is a daily reminder that there is no reason whatsoever why the Haus of Saud should be ruling Arabia.

> Taiwan is living proof that Chinese culture and democracy mix perfectly well

On the contrary, Taiwan is the proof that Chinese culture and democracy don't mix well. In fact that is why CNP lost in the first place and retreated to the island. China will always need a strong federal government to lead, or it would just break into smaller counties like EU.

Wow, 50c party members trolls on HN (see [1])?

   Taiwan is the proof that 
   Chinese culture and democracy 
   don't mix well.

Could you elaborate on this wild claim? While you do so, please bear in mind that pretty much every authoritarian ruler ever in human has justified itself by claiming that his subjects are not ready for, or not interested in democracy.

Chiang Kai-shek rules Taiwan with an iron fist, and democratisation began for real only in the 1980s, including allowing free press, lifting bans on new political parties. Incidentally it was Chiang Ching-kuo, who was appointed by Chiang Kai-shek as premier, see [2] for more detail. Taiwanese citizens are certainly very happy with their blossoming democracy, and are a shining beacon that the mainland will hopefully eventually follow.

   break into smaller counties like EU.

Why would it be a bad thing if China would split into smaller countries? Smaller countries are much less dangerous to their neighbours than big countries when they fail catastrophically (note that all countries fail catastrophically from time to time). BTW, The EU is composed of smaller countries, and a voluntary organisations. Maybe the mainland should charm Taiwan (and HK) into a voluntary union, rather than bully and terrorise?

(In fairness, it must be said that both, Mainland China, and the states making up the EU, have a long and violent history of warring states.)

[1] https://gking.harvard.edu/50C

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan#Democratization

> Wow, 50c party members trolls on HN (see [1])?

I like how quick you label people as soon as they share different political view.

> Could you elaborate on this wild claim?

Taiwan enjoyed a short period of economic boom only thanks to China opened up its market to Taiwan and had policies encouraging business from Taiwan to do so. This almost has nothing to do with their political system.

And now things have turned around. Taiwan's democratic system is a drag on their economy and prone to foreign influence. (Buying outdated weaponary from States? Continuous internal political struggles?) Whereas China has a much more unified vision under a strong leadership and on track to seek total economic dominance.

   outdated weaponary from States?

Taiwan wouldn't need weapons were it not for the unacceptable bullying from China. Let's not forget that China also supported Pol Pot just a few decades ago.

   Continuous internal political struggles?

Vigorous political debate is the hallmark of a democracy.

   seek total economic dominance.

Sounds horrifying. I recommend veiling your threats in a more gentle language, maybe you can fool more people that way.

> Taiwan wouldn't need weapons were it not for the unacceptable bullying from China.

I see that we would never convince the other at this point. But I do hope that you open up your eye one day and don't give into those radical left ideology.

I don't know if you are living in either China or Taiwan to know the dynamics of this complex situation. If not, your source would be only from your parents and biased narrative of west media. And those people most likely don't understand it either.

Watch more Jordan Peterson video maybe. Be a good citizen of the world.

加油。(wink, wink)

Jordan Peterson isn't exactly a friend of communist parties, have a look at what he's got to say about Mao. Xi's bullying of Taiwan is directly out of Mao's playbook.

> Jordan Peterson isn't exactly a friend of communist parties

I never said JP would embrace any communist ideology. I was merely pointing out that you should see and think before you make ignorant claims without any actual data or seeing things with your own eyes.

> Xi's bullying of Taiwan

I don't understand why you keep saying bullying. For a tiny little island still holding claim to the mainland, China is being extremely nice. (Imagine Mexico government still holding claims to States that U.S. has taken by force, how would U.S. government react to that?) All I see around me is Taiwan business taking advantage of Chinese market and Taiwanese employees enjoy the fruit of China's development. There may be frictions, but it certainly wouldn't come near to the level that U.S. is exploiting it's neighbors in the continent.

Hope you would stop being a hypocrite before pointing figures.

   For a tiny little island still 
   holding claim to the mainland, 
   China is being extremely nice.

That is because of the "One China" consensus that the ROC and the PRC currently adhere to. A one-sided change of this status, e.g. by Taiwan renouncing being rulers of all of China, might trigger the PRC's anti-secession laws, which in turn would lead to an invasion of Taiwan by the PRC.

Another dimension is that if the mainland was actually interested in free trade, as required by e.g. the World Trade Organization (WTO), the mainland had to be open to other countries ...

As an aside, you accept Mainland's claim to TW, but not the symmetric claim of TW to the mainland. So you are applying double standards. Hmmm ...

As a further aside, it was a big strategic blunder of the KMT not to rescind its claim to be the legitimate rulers of the mainland when Nixon switched from the KMT to Mao as the official rulers of the mainland, and let the mainland into the UN. At the time, the mainland was very weak, desperate for international recognition, and would probably have accepted such a deal. (Pure speculation: Nixon deliberately encouraged the KMT to keep claiming mainland rulership, so as to instate a frozen conflict [2] / do divide-and-conquer against Mao. Again, I have no evidence for this, but that sort of Machiavellian trick has been used by empires since time immemorial to weaken its competitors.)

   Taiwan business taking 
   advantage of Chinese market

That's part of the PRC's subversion strategy: get access to Taiwanese technology, institute a brain-drain, and most important: buy the acquiescence of the Taiwanese rich -- rest assured that Taiwanese companies can only succeed on the mainland, as long as they are not questioning the PRC's stance on Taiwan.

    you keep saying bullying.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. [1] is today's example of bullying.

[1] http://uk.businessinsider.com/palau-airline-closes-over-ange...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frozen_conflict

Wow.. the liberty fighter strikes again.

Hope you enjoy your democracy while it lasts and stop being naive one day.

I literally have nothing to say to anyone who actually believes China would launch invasion against Taiwan.

Really? are any of those CCP members still active, or even alive?

Bizzarely, even today, Taiwan's interpretation of the "One China" consensus is that Taiwan, is the legitimate ruler of all of China, including the mainland.

I'm not sure why, maybe the Taiwan sees this as a bargaining chip, to be given up at an opportune moment, in exchange for something else, e.g. the Mainland accepting Taiwan's independence. I suspect this would have been possible at some point when the PRC was weak (maybe in the 1960s or 1970s) but seems unlikely now. I read somewhere that this might be because a formal acceptance of no longer being rulers of all of China, might trigger the Mainland's anti-secession laws, which in turn would lead to an invasion on Taiwan by the Mainland.

It needs to be reminded that, from China's perspective, Taiwan is their territory. Anything that is invested in Taiwan may (or will) eventually end up in Chinese hands. As China grows, they will require deals with Taiwanese companies that are similar to mainland deals.

By acquiring ML/AI/Robotics IP China can export Ultra Low Cost/Superior Products.

So now Chinese company cannot approach employees in Taiwanese companies any more. Okay.

Behind paywall: https://archive.is/uLiop

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