Comment by znpy | Hacker News Reader

Comment by znpy | Hacker News Reader

Since we're talking Model M, I will leave here my two cents about this whole mechanical keyboard wave that's been going on for some years now.

And before everyone downvotes me:

- yes, I own a mechanical keyboard (more than one, actually).

- Yes, one of them is a Model M. I also own an Unicomp Endura Pro (the one with the TrackPoint).

- Yes I have used some other Cherry-based keyboard (cherry blue and another color I didn't care remembering)

- Yes I have used a Topre-based keyboard.

Well, here is my two cents: mechanical keyboard are pointless.

It's one of those memes of this industry (like stickers on laptops). While I acknowledge that some membrane keyboard typing experience are atrocious, sometimes it's just a matter of brand/model. For example the "Dell Business Multimedia Keyboard" typing experience is remarkably good (link: https://www.amazon.com/KB522-Dell-Business-Multimedia-Compat...).

Quite frankly, I'd throw my Endura Pro in the trash can if that Dell Keyboard was available with the addition of a TrackPoint.

Mechanical keyboards offer no real typing aid, no speed-up, they are heavy, noisy (the "hey everybody look at me" kind of noisy), they have unnecessary accessories (rgb lighting wave effect? but why?) and above all they are unreasonably expensive.

Quite frankly, the best keyboard I have used so far is the ThinkPad USB Keyboard (1st gen, basically an X220 keyboard within a nice enclosure with a decent palmrest). It's light and checks all of my boxes. And it's not louder than a regular keyboard.

The aid that they offer to typing is that they don't actuate only when you bottom out so your fingers can more accurately determine when they have pressed a key, and you don't have to press the keys down so much. It is definitely noticeable in comparison to many rubber dome keyboards, IME, but to each their own. It is less noticeable on laptop keyboards as the travel distance is so low anyway.

* lots of mechanical keybards are awful though

> your fingers can more accurately determine when they have pressed a key

In my own, singular/personal experience, this has never been a problem for me, even with the much maligned MBP keyboard. When the key stops traveling, you have pressed the key.

Not discounting anyone who doesn't have the same experience - just offering my own.

You're missing the point. The whole point of a mechanical keyboard is that you don't press the key all the way down; you stop when it clicks. This is good for RSI because your finger doesn't abruptly decelerate because of mechanical bottoming-out.

I had a Model M back in the days when you could still buy a real Model M, and I was happy to get rid of it. I think everyone should use whatever type of keyboard fits them best and I'd never tell anyone they're using their keyboard wrong if that's the keyboard they like, but my favorite keyboard is the one on my 2015 rMBP. (disclosure, I've never used the keyboard on the brand new Macbook so I have no opinion on that)

I was glad to get rid of my Model M not only because, like you said, it was obnoxiously loud, but also because the keys were so damn heavy. Every mechanical keyboard I've used, I feel the same way on. I end up feeling like I'm forcing my fingers down, which tires out my wrists and forearms. Typing on a previous-generation Macbook keyboard, the keys respond almost the second I touch them, with barely any pressure needed at all. It feels a lot nicer and more responsive. I'm sure eventually I could find a really nice mechanical keyboard I like, but yeah, they're really expensive so I don't want to buy a bunch of them.

I personally don't like the feeling or the sound of typing on a typewriter, which mechanical keyboards feel like to me. I'm very happy with my current laptop's keyboard. Along the same vein, my 2013 MBP with the mechanical trackpad click is awful and hurts my finger over time when I click it. I much prefer the new force touch trackpad that doesn't really click, since it takes a lot less pressure to activate.

I suspect it depend on what purpose you are using the keyboard, and to a much larger degree to the amount of experience one has with one type of keyboard.

To make a analogy, a professional car racer is likely to have a strong opinion on the sound of the car engine, the behavior of the car and how much pressure is needed to turn the wheel. What would happen if you put a race driver in a car with noise cancellation so they can't hear anything, change the turning strength of the wheel so you need a fraction of the strength, and removed any "tactile feel" from the car (increased suspensions and so on). I would suspect that in the short time their racing ability would drastically drop, and possible long term. Hearing and feel are very core senses and gives ques to muscle memory, and it make some sense that cutting them off would likely harm performance in a competitive environment.

Personally I know that when I go and type on a membrane keyboard I tend to type with more mistakes, hammering the keys way too hard and have to look down more often at my hands. I suspect that 90% of that is down to muscle memory, but I am yet to be convinced that it is 100%.

- If you use 'normal' layout then you can use any keyboard. But mechanical switches allow to build ANY layout you would like (see links)

- You can program most mechanical keyboards (https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware) and move any key whenever you like and use additional features like assigning different actions on key 'tap' and 'hold'

- You can customize keycaps

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/KBDfans-Free-shipping-Ergodo...

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/KBDfans-Free-shipping-Ergodo...

I did notice one thing on my Cherry-MX brown: I was never ever left in doubt if a key registered or not. On my old membrane keyboard, sometimes I needed to double check if it registered (because I didn't pressed the key quite right), and when I was unsure in a password field, I needed to fully delete it and then type the password again.

Not a big thing, but it's a small improvement.

I spent about 3 months at my new job having to type my password multiple times before grabbing a work mechanical keyboard. It's still not as nice as my one at home, but it's a big drop in the rate of error.

Great post and sums up my experience as well. Have tried all you have and more (accept never got around to trying a Topre. I refuse to spend more on a keyboard than an i5 CPU). Amazingly, that Dell keyboard is ALSO the same exact KB that got me to just the same two cents as you! Typing on that Dell KB522 right now and have been for 7 months after someone recommended it to me in a popular online keyboard community.

Dell has history of making some of the best membrane keyboards. I had a SK-8115 for 3 years, then used one of their Taiwan RT7D5JTW Quietkey keyboards for 7 years and then I went through my mechanical phase for a year. Only to end up back on a Dell membrane.

Glad to see someone else confirm my thoughts.

Maybe the whole industry can reach the true typing nirvana: that Dell keyboard, with trackpoint.

I had one of those Lenovo keyboards with a Trackpoint until an unfortunate accident involving a cup of coffee. I went with something more ergonomic in its place, but I really miss that trackpoint...

Does anyone know why so few keyboards come with a TrackPoint. Having a trackpoint in the middle of your keyboard saves so many extra movements. Is it because of some IBM licensing costs?

No idea why they never caught on. I haven't seen a desktop keyboard with one for ages. Lenovo used to do one but now all they do is the actual laptop keyboard in a desk case and that's it.

I got an IBM one years ago when I bought a T22. No idea of model, it wasn't mechanical, but it was the best keyboard I have ever used. Mostly because of that trackpoint, the buttons were exactly where you'd rest thumbs under the space bar anyway. Tackpads and mice always feel second best to me.

Even the key feel was great (and I have a UK made Model M and tried a selection of mechanical gaming keyboards that have all been disappointing apart from the M).

Probably because of people like me. Had one on a few keyboards (including current Lenovo) and I was recently wondering why they still have them. I've never found one second of benefit, it just irritates me to even try it.

Not that it's the right view at all. Who knows what "most people" prefer but the lack of them might indicate a general cluelessness of how to use them.

It's possible other manufacturers don't add it because when they've tried it doesn't move their sales needle at all. Those who want it are particular about usage and eg just use Lenovo?

Tex Yoda: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/tex-yoda

Also, the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard has a couple of addon modules for trackpoints and trackballs: https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/

I agree that the X220 keyboard is a great one, definitely up there with the best keyboards around. And I also love the last-gen mbp keyboards. But a carefully tuned mech can offer a great experience imo. I see it as one of those things where the costs outweigh the benefits until you tune the thing perfectly. As you said, nearly all mechs are stupid loud - and for no reason because key dampeners (the little rubber o-rings) exist - it's just that nobody uses them. Same with the material used for a backplate. These are choices that a lot of mech buyers discount or aren't even aware of, but they make a big difference especially to the people that have to listen to you type 8 hrs a day. If you get blues in an open office you are an asshole.

And for the record my coworker's Model M drives me insane.

I have been on exactly the same journey!

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