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Comment by manigandham | Hacker News Reader

Apple biggest UX failures always stem from putting form before function. There is a lower limit to thinness/lightness before consumers just don't care, and it was passed long ago.

There was great progress made with the unibody Macbook Pros and the Macbook Airs but these latest models are so thin that it's actually annoying and leads to issues like poor battery life, lack of repair-ability, and malfunctioning keyboards. Isn't better usability actually more of a luxury then simple aesthetics?

Based on the timing, this seems like a train set in motion by Steve Jobs but he passed away and now nobody wants to recognize that it's way off course and needs a correction.

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On one hand I'm inclined to agree with you. Thin is not always better. On the other hand I'm holding my 3 pound Macbook Pro comfortably and easily. It's light enough that I don't have to think about slipping it into my day bag (something I did think about with the previous iteration) and thin enough to easily grip with one hand and walk around. When I was traveling, there wasn't even a question about whether I would bring my laptop. It's just too easy not to bring.

Sure, there's a bunch of flaws in the design and I hate that they removed the SD card reader, but it's probably the closest I've seen to the platonic ideal of a laptop. Something that you can always carry on you, that you can pop open in short notice and quickly slip back into your bag when no longer needed.

You wouldn't notice if it was 5lbs either, the human body is much more capable than that unless we're talking about small children. People routinely carry much bigger and heavier things.

Perhaps if it was still a netbook/macbook air product then it would make sense, but we also have iphones and ipads now which actually seem to be getting bigger so there's no reason why the most mobile powerful computing device must be so small.

I own a 2012 MacBook pro 15' and work gave me a 2016. The difference is about 1.5 pounds, going from 5.6 pounds to 4 pounds. The difference is big enough that I've slowly started using my work laptop for most of my personal needs too, even though I initially wanted to keep my work laptop clean of unnecessary personal data.

But then again, would you have noticed the heaviness of the 2012 if you weren't given the 2016?

Possibly not, but I did notice carrying my personal laptop around versus my work laptop. It made a fairly big difference in fatigue whether I was going to the cafe or to another country.

You drop more weight just going to the bathroom in the morning. I find it extremely hard to believe that a few pounds makes a difference to any physically capable adult.

It does. If the laptop is light enough, you can handle it (grab it, put it back on the table etc.) comfortably with one hand even while laying away from it etc. It becomes almost as comfortable to quickly grab as a tablet or a phone.

Laptops are not designed to be handled with one hand. It's a nice benefit but it definitely should not be the target, especially at the cost of better usability, which is the entire issue here.

Is this slight advantage worth compromising the machines main input device for?

It's not about physical capability. Obviously people aren't getting exhausted moving around 5lb laptops instead of 3lb ones. It's about comfort and ease of manipulation.

Why is giving up a better keyword and battery worth the few ounces? How is that more comfortable overall? Do you hold it with one hand more often than you type on it?

The difference between a laptop I can comfortably have in a backpack or messenger bag when cycling is huge - it goes from something I took when I was specifically planning to use it (and worried about back pain even then) to something I essentially have on me at all times now.

Funny you mention that. I don't know about you, but I feel much more spritely and alive after doing those few pounds in the morning.

Are you sure it’s not also because the 2016 laptop is more performant?

Is that the same as "faster"? Serious question.

Yes.

I use the 2012 at home and the 2017 at work. Think I actually prefer it heavier but maybe it's because I also respect my 2012 more after growing to hate my 2017 with 5 stuck keys and return key deadzone so look at this supposed flaw as wanted power and sturdiness rather than unwanted weight.

Plus the lightness is offset by having to carry a dongle and them only shipping the bulky powercord not the short cord in the 2017 which I found an insultingly stingy gesture for a nearly 3K machine.

Yep, I think I would feel the same as you do if my work laptop was a 2017. Work gave me an old laptop, and I was happy with that because I don't have to deal with the touch bar or USB C.

I also share your sense of value about the machines. The 2012 is the last MacBook pro I've paid for myself.

EDIT: I just checked and my work laptop is a mid 2015. It's still much lighter than my personal MBP, but I think this was the last generation before USB c charging and the elimination of ports.

> Something that you can always carry on you, that you can pop open in short notice and quickly slip back into your bag when no longer needed.

My ~5lb Windows one (with 1lb charger) feels the same. I've never had any of the concerns mentioned with it either.

Weight is not the same as thinness. The X1 Carbon is substantially lighter than the MacBook Pro, but with a much better keyboard and much more repairable.

> On one hand I'm inclined to agree with you. Thin is not always better. On the other hand I'm holding my 3 pound Macbook Pro comfortably and easily.

I see what you did there. Nice.

The iOS UI is similarly crippled. I got my parents an iPad as they were moving countries and needed a small portable device that needed no maintenance. To Apple's credit, the iPad is basically impossible to screw up software-wise.

But even the initial setup UI places form over function. Basically there is no way to tell what is a button and sometimes you have to click the word at the top to move on and sometimes the word on the bottom. It's completely bonkers.

> Basically there is no way to tell what is a button

Since Jony Ive decides alone. Under Jobs the buttons were drawn in the UI.

The touch bar is another example of this.

I always hit the wrong keys, even after a year I'll end up hitting ~/` instead of the escape key, I routing hit "mute" instead of volume down (or I'll hit up instead).

Also: the totally different bar UI you are exposed to when in sleep mode.

I understand why it has to be so, security wise, for application functions there but it'd be nice if the sound controls were consistent...

In my opinion Apple has a very mixed track record when it comes to "jumping the gun."

Some things they did exactly when needed (removing the CD drive, Retina displays, ...can't think of any others right now).

Other things they did way too early (butterfly keycaps, trackpad size, touch bar, USB C, removing the headphone jack on iPhone).

I think adopting USB-C is fine, but going USB-C only was too early.

Still a dongle on every desk of my office, how many years has this thing been USB-C only now...

I'm a big fan of USB-C—I try to avoid purchasing any devices without it. But I use the non-USB-C ports on my ThinkPad T480—HDMI, USB-A, Ethernet—on a regular basis. It also has a hot-swappable battery, superb typing experience, and is easily serviced.

And it weighs about the same as a MBP (right in between the 13" and 15" MBP, which makes sense since it's a 14" laptop).

I would pay $100-300 for macOS on hardware like this.

My problem with USB-C on MBP is that, at least 6 months ago, I couldn't find a good, fully compatible port expander.

In particular, my 2017 13" MBP gets pretty confused sometimes when talking to two external monitors connected via my Elegato expander. Even just one monitor sometimes gets confused after sleeping.

It was annoying enough that now I typically use just one external monitor. And when I need two, I conmect the second directly to my MBP's 2nd USB-C port, not to my expander.

Touchbar should never have happened in the first place, not now, not ever. It such an obviously bad idea.

As someone who spends his day shuffling between conference rooms before mercifully being given time to work, I am grateful for every ounce shaved off of the device I work on. no sacrifice to battery, and it's on my company's dime if it fails.

Why is shuffling between conference rooms so arduous?

When did people become so weak as to not be able to carry a few pounds (or even ounces) between rooms? That's not a good thing and arguing about such little weight is indicative of much bigger health problems than any laptop design issues.

I routinely walk home from work—3 miles, which takes about an hour. Even with a high-quality shoulder strap, I can notice a half-pound difference in laptop weight.

My T480 is lighter than a 15" MBP, and is user-serviceable. It's also one of the less svelte models in the ThinkPad line—if I wanted to sacrifice a bit of repairability (nothing as bad as Apple) for some weight savings, I could have gone with a T480s or X1 Carbon.

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