SF Restaurants Can’t Afford Waiters. So They’re Putting Diners to Work | Hacker News Reader

SF Restaurants Can’t Afford Waiters. So They’re Putting Diners to Work

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41 pointsalex_young87 comments

Last discussed 9 hours prior; at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17394551

It seems like the media team at NYTimes has pushed things too far, pushing dup's to the front page a bit too often.

It's easy enough to see for yourself via https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=nytimes.com that it isn't "the media team at NYTimes" who's posting most of these. As for dupes, they happen every day.

That's a cafeteria.

My favorite dining experience in SF was when I got half of a deviled egg for $9, and the server was just too fucking bothered to tell me that I should order another half for my date.

I'll bet they're still going to try to slip in the "healthcare" fee for the non-existent full timers.

Just one more thing: people will absolutely pay $20 for a burger. Many places sell more expensive burgers, and at some they are the most popular and profitable menu item.

Raise prices.

Was that egg at Marlowe?

Absolutely was. That's hilarious.

I knew it! I worked in an office near by there, and was invited to eat there by some friends. I'll admit, it was good, but the price was mind boggling :)

Haha! You are correct. Establishments like this are technically just glorified cafeterias at this point. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/cafeteria

Calling it a "restaurant" is a misnomer. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/restaurant

In Santa Cruz we have a bar with no bartenders. It's fantastic. Scan your bracelet (linked to your CC), pour yourself whatever beer on tap you want and pay only for the once you pour. Want one once of 16 different beers? No problem. Can't get that experience at a traditional bar.

The seating is more like a restaurant, so no one is sitting by themselves staring at a wall full of hard alcohol, everyone is facing the room and mingling.

And the notion of the wise bartender with an ear to lend from the movies I never saw transpire in real life.

Given how bad most people are at pouring beers even from a bottle, let alone from tap, I don't know if that's a good idea.

But then again, I've seen plenty of bartenders completely screw up the pouring process. Just the other day I had a German backpacker behind the bar try to pour my Guinness like it was a lager.

> And the notion of the wise bartender with an ear to lend from the movies I never saw transpire in real life.

I'm surprised that you haven't found any wise bartenders yet. That's one of the reasons I enjoy going to good craft beer pubs. When I used to work in a pub I had a good knowledge of every beer on tab, whenever there was a new beer I'd have a half pint of it so that I'd know what it was like.

I was actually familiar enough with the regular beers that we served that I was able to discern the variations between the batches that came in.

I went to a place like that. The nice thing is, if you get a shitty pour, you have no one to blame but yourself!

I actually got to try three different drinks for the price of one, since they have no problem if you give yourself a one ounce pour. In fact, they have a button right on the machine to dispense one ounce. It was great.

> Want one once of 16 different beers? No problem.

apart from the lack of decency.

> And the notion of the wise bartender with an ear to lend from the movies I never saw transpire in real life.

maybe not like "in the movies" but did you ever try to at least befriend the bartender ?

> apart from the lack of decency.

I've been to a place like that. They had a button on the dispense for a one ounce pour, so they were actually encouraging us to try many beers.

yes... but not all together at the same time in the same pint, right ?

Of course not. I don't think OP was suggesting it was the same pint either.

No. There's water to wash your glass after each beer

Neighborhood bars: get to know folks, and become an unofficial official bartender. I guess tips in this “new” (under/unpaid) economy are “buy low, sell high,” as business owners complain about being “unable” to find workers to underpay with a sub-livable wage.

> and pay only for the once you pour. Want one once of 16 different beers? No problem.

Once -> Ounce (I was very confused)

> "Want one once of 16 different beers? No problem."

If I want one pint of 16 different beers, will it comply or will it cut me off for being visibly intoxicated?

I think you only get 32 or 48oz every two hours. The limit does seem pretty low.

Probably calibrated for smaller framed people, to error on the side of safety/legality.

The small menu is so appealing and the place itself so charming that you almost forget, as a diner, that you have to do much of the work of dining out yourself. You scout your own table. You fetch and fill your own water glass. And if you’d like another glass of wine, you go back to the counter.

A lot of low-range restaurants work in Australia and New Zealand. Is this really that rare in America?

This is common in the USA at fast food (McDonalds..etc) and fast casual (Chipotle...etc) restaurants.

It is rare for a place that sells their cheapest 250ml glass of wine for $13USD to operate this way.

But likely this was just chosen as a restaurant to fit the discussion of certain types of labour being priced out of SF.

Switzerland has a lot of high end cafeterias, I’m sure 13USD wine would be considered cheap.

I'm from New Zealand and can also confirm that there are plenty of small cafes and restaurants where you have to order at the counter. It's not a new thing here either.

Wait there’s cafe where you don’t go to the counter? I’m from NZ and living in Singapore and traveled all around Asia, never been in a cafe where I didn’t have to go to the counter...

At most cafes in France and Spain, you are expected to sit down and have the waiter come to you.

Oh the Wife wants to go back to France. She’s been, I haven’t. Hah I look forward to this trip now.

Yes, confirmed that this is very standard here. You take a number or a buzzer and so on. You've usually paid up front. Very standard in pubs. Sometimes they will run your food out to you but quite you get a buzzer goes off and you're the runner as well.

That means that aside from taking orders, only the lowest skill, lowest interaction front-of-the-house job remains (bussing tables), and if they foot-drag a bit on that, the customers wind up doing it for them...

Sure, there are plenty of places where you get your food and take it to your table yourself.

I also know of a place near me where you order at the counter, and someone brings you your food when it's ready, but they don't "wait on you" beyond that.

Panera (sandwich & soup chain) used to have you order at a counter and collect your food when it was done, but they have been trying to get people to use touchscreens for ordering, and take a radio homing device* to your table so you can be brought food by the people who used to take your order.

*where the low tech solution that would work just as well is to simply ask your name when ordering.

The homing devices are common at Korean waffle places in Beijing, at least they were 5 years ago.

Chic filet uses number placards.

I think its been somewhat common in US before as well in cafes, pizza places, bars, food courts etc.

I think the difference the article is trying to make is the places like Souvla (fast-casual), that have nice decor, good/high-end food and wine options and potentially restaurant like prices, are targeting the normal mid-high end customers but using low-cost the self serve model.

Souvla does get old quite fast, but nowadays I'm definitely drawn to fast-casual places if I'm just interested to eat and not spend the whole day/night in the restaurant. You know what you get, the quality is good, its at least perceivably healthier (you don't feel sick like you would after McDonalds) it's fast (even with lines, you know you are in and out in 15-30mins) and there usually no table seating rules (you can order and sit down even if one of your friends is 15mins late).

So, a question from a foreigner, if you buy something at a counter, should you tip? I would think the answer is no, but in states where minimum wage laws are different for tipped workers, I would expect the answer to be yes, but are there other guidelines? Does it matter if you eat in vs take out? What are the damn expectations?

I'm sure you'll get as many answers as people you ask, but I personally do not.

I tip waiters who come around to refill my water and ask how the meal is.

I tip delivery-people (like, delivery to an off-restaurant location. Not someone who brings my plate out and that's it).

I don't tip other employees at eateries.

Delivery used to be free from most pizza places and the occasional other restaurant that delivered. Now, almost everyone charges a delivery fee. The idea of tipping on top of that just irks me to no end, although I do it so they won't spit on my food next time. I don't tip my Fedex or UPS deliveryman, why should I tip for food delivery when I've already been charged extra for that exact service?

There are people who tip the fedex or ups courier? I didn’t even consider this was a possibility.

No, there aren't people that do that, basically. The parent comment was pointing out that that would be an absurdity if it were occurring.

No, of course there aren't. That was the point that was being made about food delivery.

Some people tip their garbage collector: http://www.mymoneyblog.com/how-do-i-tip-the-trash-collector....

From a foreign perspective, where I don't think I've ever tipped anyone in my life, it's absolutely bizarre.

Tipping a garbage collector is bizarre from an American perspective too.

Back when I lived with my parents in a single-family home people would give the garbage collectors a little something once per year, usually around christmas.

My garbage collector has to park his truck, open my gate, get back in his truck, empty my dumpster, park his truck again, lock my gate, and then finally go on to the next customer.

His extra effort and reliability warrants a Christmas card and monetary gift every year.

If you buy something at a counter, there is no social expectation that you tip (bartenders are the sole exception, but just give them a dollar not a percentage.) Nor for takeout, but you should definitely tip for delivery (those guys get a raw deal anyway, their pay sucks and they're almost always putting miles on their personal vehicle. Tip them with cash when possible, to make sure they get to keep it...)

Giving bartenders a dollar no matter the order amount is not cool, really. That’s how you turn invisible to them the next time you want to order a drink ;)

Hopefully GP meant a dollar per drink. That seems to be the norm.

If you're headed to a craft establishment, $2 is the norm now. (aka a drink that has 4-10 ingredients, not a vodka/soda)

Personally if the drink is sub-10$, I tip $1.

Then you're not going to 'craft' establishments.

Maybe I'm not. Could you link an example of one? Would you tip more than 1$ on, say, a $6 drink there?

You wouldn't be paying $6 for a 'craft' style cocktail anywhere in the US. A 'craft' cocktail usually has 4-10 ingredients and a garnish that compliments the flavor - usually through your orthonasal senses. It's not a vodka soda or a gin and tonic. It's a Fish House Punch or a Jungle Bird or a Champs Elysees or any number of amazing cocktails that exist in the world.

I suppose that's where the disconnect is. I only order beers or shots of whisky. One dollar per drink keeps the bartenders attentive in my experience.

I disagree. I tip a dollar per drink no matter what it is. It's no more than 30 seconds of work to pour/ open a beer, maybe 60 seconds for a mixed drink? Then I walk away. Transaction/ service complete. Unlike a server who attends to you for the duration of a meal, while you are also sitting there occupying table space of other paying customers.

Most people run tabs on plastic nowadays, so how's the bartender supposed to even know what they are earning per drink? I prefer to pay in cash & tip dollars as I go, & i find most bartenders are more than happy to get them & continue good service when they see paper coming their way on every transaction.

Sure, that’s reasonable. I just see people who order a round of 6 drinks and then throw a single dollar in, at some places.

> Tip them with cash when possible, to make sure they get to keep it...)

Nothing like trying to help income inequality than to promote progressive income tax evasion.

Facilitating tax evasion is one consideration (although trust me, delivery people fall into a very low tax bracket anyway...) But another consideration is the number of employers who try to keep tips for themselves. It's hard to know which businesses do this, so it's safer to just tip with cash.

> If you buy something at a counter, there is no social expectation that you tip

In the USA, plenty of counter-service restaurants/shops have tip jars. Further, many counter-service food outlets have added a tipping option to their credit card process, usually with 15% as the minimum.

Those tip jars are basically a "if you don't want to deal with coinage or $1 dollar bills, we'll take it off your hand" option. You won't be thought poorly of for not tipping at a cafe or counter-service restaurant the same way you would be for not tipping a regular waiter.

Thanks Starbucks, for taking those dollar bills off my hands so I don't have to deal with them! How convenient of you! The homeless guy outside will also perform the same service, by the way, but I wouldn't be "supporting a living wage" if I gave him the money instead of your baristas.

Starbucks isn't taking anything; they are receiving from people who give willingly. If you choose to give them your money, you've got nobody but yourself to blame. In the case of tip jars at counters you can't even blame social pressure, participating in such a scheme is completely voluntary and most people do not.

Your argument is reductive. ALL tips are given willingly.

Starbucks could, at any moment, bar individual stores from placing a tip jar at their registers. Just like McDonald's. No tips, no issue, no should I or shouldn't I?

Tips to wait staff are voluntary but have significant social pressure behind them. Tip jars at counters have no social pressure behind them. That's not reductive, that's just the practical reality of tipping culture in America. If you refuse to tip a waitress a very significant portion of the American population will consider you tantamount to a thief, a morally bankrupt person. Refusing to put your change in the tip jar doesn't even cause people to bat an eye. The social dynamics between these two scenarios are worlds apart. Ignoring these disparate social dynamics is reductive.

If you're going to be outraged that Starbucks offers you the opportunity to tip people at the counter, perhaps I should feign outrage that you spend your money on starbucks instead of making your own coffee and giving the difference to the homeless. Starbucks has a significant profit margin after all; that is money you could be donating!

Your outrage would be misdirected, as I have not patronized Starbucks in many years. But among friends who do, they absolutely feel pressure to tip, especially when they see the same barista every single day. I'll trust them over you, thanks.

> "But among friends who do, they absolutely feel pressure to tip,"

I'm pretty damn skeptical of that, since in America the vast majority of customers do not put anything in counter tip jars. Maybe you've got some sort of strange selection bias going on...

They have tip jars, but there is no social expectation that you should use them. Sometimes I drop my change in them if I don't want it in my pocket.

> many counter-service food outlets have added a tipping option to their credit card process

I see this as just a little bit underhanded... creating the expectation of a tip in situations where one is not needed.

Also, the presence of a tip jar does not create the need for a tip.

I tip when I take out from somewhere that also has seated, tipping customers. In that case I tip 10-15%.

I don't tip more than a buck or two at other places (coffee, burrito, pizza, etc) and if I don't tip at all I don't feel bad.

When you tip for takeout, who do anticipate is receiving that money? You didn't interact with a waiter, a maitre'd, a sommelier, and the owner didn't come by to ensure everything was good. The cook/chef (who is, realistically, the employee most worthy of receiving a tip) only gets a small slice of pooled tips. It's a bit absurd to tip for "service" when you received no service, and there's no employee to whom you're directing the tip. It's just like, hey, here's some extra money for whoever wants it...

I tip 10% for counter pickup, 20% for table service and 15-20% for delivery.

At Souvla, the food is really good and I tip the 15% default IIRC.

Look and see if there is a tip jar?

I wouldn't. There is no service that's being provided, but you will still see plenty of tip jars and a line item for tips if you pay by card. As a business you'd be foolish to not have that, as you see by other commenters they happily part with their money.

I still tip 5% - 10% depending on if they are going to run the food out to me, clean up the table after me, or have to spend a lot of time packaging up the item after they make it (to go orders or complicated stay in orders).

My tipping strategy in this situation: If they simply take your order at the counter and bring your food out, no tip.

I also don't tip in places where you are expected to bus (clear) your own table, unless other service has been provided.

Keep in mind: Tipping is the means by which to acknowledge good service.

If you did NOT receive good service, that should be reflected in the amount of your tip (or your lack of tip).

If you receive exceptional service, that should also be reflected.

The general rule is to tip in proportion to the service, and the quality of service being delivered.

Is the implication that if you didn't tip, then the service was bad? I'm sorry, but it should be a given that the service adequately good in the normal course of business --otherwise, why is it a restaurant? I am fine if tipping is something you do when you experience exceptional service that is above and beyond satisfactory, instead of something you are compelled to do every time. The argument that waiters might not be paid enough is a valid point, but it is separate.

> Is the implication that if you didn't tip, then the service was bad?

Yes. That is the implication.

> it should be a given that the service adequately good in the normal course of business

Yes, as you say, it usually is adequately good. What about when it isn't?

Not all service is good. Not all service deserves tipping and not all service is going generate repeat customers.

As for myself, I'm all about the food. If the food is good and it gets out to me in a timely manner, I'm a happy camper, and I'll tip 20% (at a tipping-type location).

What about the times when the service is egregiously poor? You could choose to contact management. Surely they would want to know why you won't be eating there anymore... You could tip 2 pennies to communicate to the server that their service was poor... I've heard both of those suggestions.

I choose to communicate this by lowering the tip I leave, and in the absolute worst cases, leave no tip at all. Perhaps there is a better option. I don't consider leaving a 20% tip to be that better option.

I don't think this is really a particularly new concept.

I think that there are two factors that have fuelled the rise of this type of restaurant. The first is that people are eschewing more formal dining for casual joints. When was the last time anyone went on a date to an actual fine dining establishment? Let alone gone to one with friends.

Secondly, this isn't fine dining dressing down, but rather greasy spoons dressing up. Souva just looks like a hipster version of a the kebab shop around the corner from me run by an old Lebanese bloke. A lot of these places, for better or worse, are ethnic food joints that are owned and operated by white people (to put it bluntly). I've seen a lot of these pop up recently. They're a hipster, more expensive version of traditional ethnic food. Vietnamese and Chinese seem to be particularly popular.

> When was the last time anyone went on a date to an actual fine dining establishment?

Last night actually with my wife to a very nice french restaurant, something we do once a week. We live in a cramped apartment without space for a dining table, these moments are very cherished because we get to sit face to face in a nice environment with good food.

> When was the last time anyone went on a date to an actual fine dining establishment? Let alone gone to one with friends.

Anyone? I'm going to take zero risk of being wrong and say “within the last hour”. To both questions.

This may not be something that happens in your social circle, but it is certainly something that happens regularly.

Souvla is a bad example. They have like 3 kinds of wrap (or salad, if you prefer no grains) and frozen yogurt. It's basically SF's version of Chipotle, or a Greek themed taqueria. It's quick-casual comfort food, and as in both those examples, counter service. There are countless examples of quick casual, counter service restaurants serving medium quality food all over the country (including The Grove, which has been a staple of SF for 20 years).

If you were ordering $25 ravioli plates at the counter, that would be a different story. Or, they could focus on restaurants that have moved to counter service as they've expanded (like Hawker Faire, or apparently Dosa). But to spend most of the article making a big deal about Souvla being counter service makes it a misleading waste of time.

Am I the only person who prefer to get the drinks myself without a waiter? I don't even like it when someone pour drinks for me, especially not when they are compelled do it because their livelihood depends on it.

Unless it's an event where I feel under pressure to appear "stately", I don't prefer to have people waiting on me at all, so I feel this is what all restaurants should try to do.

Say you have questions and want to try something different, but are afraid to pay for something you don't want. Or, you're thirsty for a cocktail you've never had before and would like a suggestion. Isn't anyone afraid of losing that experience?

You still order from a human who could answer any of those questions.

Not necessarily. If they aren't specialized in that field and just an order taker.

Meanwhile, the cities answers to it’s problems (according to the recent ballot initiatives), more taxes! On commercial spaces! Despite record revenue! Because that won’t accelerate our vicious cycle at all...

This just seems like a good idea independent of labour costs.

We don't need a planet of 16 billion with so many workers performing simple tasks that could easily be removed with improved processes like at this restaurant.

A planet of 2 billion with cheap land and cheap food for a happy, intelligent, beautiful and productive human workforce and lots of natural habitat for flora and fauna would be a better place. Even if we have to find our own table at a restaurant.

Not sure I see the problem, restaurants survive, people eat good food, and living wages are paid. Sure the market for college students earning a side income is impacted, but does that even happen in SF ?

This article isn't talking about the market for college students. It's talking about what would be an "average" person almost anywhere other than SF.

Living wages aren't being paid because the cost of living has risen to the point where the wage once paid is no longer livable. This means that restaurants must either increase prices or cut employees, which when taken in aggregate further increases the cost of living and lowers the average income.

Yes, "restaurants" as a category survive, but the low end gets devastated. Many of these may have been around for a long time and some of them may have been a major part of the local community or have been local favorites.

If you don't have a problem with that, then that's fine, but hopefully you understand why others might.

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