Amazon, the Brand Buster
nytimes.com
nytimes.com
AFAIK, Amazon prohibits third-party merchants from selling AmazonBasics, which would mean that the inventory-mingling problem, which has been discussed on other threads, wouldn't exist.
That seems like pretty clear consumer harm.
An unscrupulous seller (of, for example, couterfeits) would benefit significantly and so would not disable the option.
That Amazon themselves don't disable this option (for "shipped and sold by Amazon.com"), except, effectively, for their own brand, is the suspect anti-competitive practice.
EDIT: Or Anker for that matter. Anker is a better example because their main business is chargers/batteries, so the should care a lot about branding and making sure there are no fake chargers under their name.
That's pretty much it – no power to limit other sellers.
Aside from a couple high profile cases of sellers getting in trouble for inventory they never sent in being associated with them, it's a great benefit to consumers.
The US GAO recently did an investigation (admittedly not specific to Amazon, but it included them) and 20 of 47 items they purchased were counterfeit!
The major logistical advantages outweigh the very low possibility of abuse. If you asked the average consumer if they would like to receive their item 2 days faster, but risk a 1 in 1000 chance that they get a bogus item they will need to exchange with Amazon at no cost, I think the former would win by a mile.
The chances of getting a counterfeit item in some product categories is basically 100%. Go ahead, try to buy a real pair of Apple iPhone corded headphones on Amazon. That assignment is quite literally impossible.
Here, buy from Amazon direct and you'll get a real one.
2) It’s not a risk that exists at competitors like Walmart and Target
3) For some categories like baby food, even a low risk of counterfeit product is unacceptable
It certainly hasn't been well-publicized as to how it works in practice, especially for a large brand. Do they opt-in or opt-out the sellers? Do they have to choose just one of those two models?
For large brands, this brings up yet another antitrust concern. If they suppress the grey market (or even create too much friction for their authorized resellers), big brand manufacturers run the risk of running afoul of even the modern, more lenient antitrust law interpretation by pushing up consumer prices.
My soap at home is similarly target's in house stuff. Half the things I buy from Costco are Kirkland.
Why do I do it? Because it's like half the price. Just like buying say AmazonBasics batteries vs Energizer.
Every CVS I've been to always has the CVS brand pretty much right next to the major label brand - they're equally accessible. If I ask a store worker where the shampoo is, he'll point me to the shampoo aisle where the CVS and major label brands are side-by-side. Contrast that with Amazon, where (at least for me) searching for "batteries" returns AmazonBasics in the top non-sponsored position.
Amazon - the shoppe - is the one making the decision, and it’s decision is to default to the item that Amazon manufactures.
In one instance the payor is choosing a manufacturer and the shoppe is fulfilling the order - all manufacturers are on equal footing; in the other the shoppe is both choosing the manufacturer (itself) and fulfilling, while disadvantaging the other manufacturers, and making the decision without asking the payor.
I hope you see how these situations are in no way analogous, and only superficially related in that the customer ends up with a knock-off.
Think of it from the brand perspective. CVS pays you to stock their product on their shelves, so while they compete with you, they also send you money every month regardless.
On the other hand, you have to pay Amazon to include your products in their catalog. So while they compete with you, you pay them for the privilege. And everything you do to innovate, they steal.
They're always trying to push Prime (and to a lesser extent their video and music service) which represents extra clicks to sale. It's a significant auto-renewing commitment, not a $5 casual impulse add-on-- repeatedly dangling it in front of me and hoping I misclick into it borders on a dark pattern. I'd love to see a big one-click "I am not interested do not bother me further" button.
Everything about their checkout funnel is contrary to modern best practices. Fields are oddly arranged compared with most other ecommerce sites, and once you reach a certain point, the normal navigation disappears. I guess this is designed to trap the user with no way out but purchase, but it makes it harder to compare items, especially when you're trying to find out on shipping (see below).
Shipping is a mess to deal with. "You need to spend $25 for free shipping, but these items don't count". "These items can ONLY be purchased with an order of other items that hit the free-shipping threshold." "These items can only be purchased with Prime." There's no easy "estimate shipping" button without going several pages into checkout. These sort of complexities probably are engineered to steer customers towards buying the items fulfilled by them to avoid the pitfalls.
I'd also wonder if their brands "accidentally" do well because of how bad their product categorization is. Nobody else is selling AmazonBasics products, so the single listing gets all the ratings and sales volume. Meanwhile, the name brand has 30 slightly different poorly arranged listings all overlapped.
When I order an air purifier, amazon reminds me I might need to buy extra filters, stuff like that. many times i have ordered stuff from websites, and key components that make what i ordered useful were not part of the order.
That's a strange interpretation. Their checkout flow is as little as 1 click and their incredible growth is from only caring about the customer and delivering value better than anyone else. Many people do almost all of their shopping on Amazon because it's fast, easy, and reliable, even if the prices aren't the best.
Most retail works exactly the opposite - the manufacturer pays the retailer significant fees for shelf space.
Meanwhile on Amazon, brands pay Amazon to feature their products. Then they pay Amazon to stock/fulfill their products (FBO). Then they pay Amazon to feature their products (promotions).
Amazon is in a heads-I-win, tails-you-lose position vis-a-vis brands.
snip snip ( https://www.yalelawjournal.org/note/amazons-antitrust-parado... )
"in some ways, the story of Amazon’s sustained and growing dominance is also the story of changes in our antitrust laws. Due to a change in legal thinking and practice in the 1970s and 1980s, antitrust law now assesses competition largely with an eye to the short-term interests of consumers, not producers or the health of the market as a whole; antitrust doctrine views low consumer prices, alone, to be evidence of sound competition. By this measure, Amazon has excelled; it has evaded government scrutiny in part through fervently devoting its business strategy and rhetoric to reducing prices for consumers. Amazon’s closest encounter with antitrust authorities was when the Justice Department sued other companies for teaming up against Amazon.23 It is as if Bezos charted the company’s growth by first drawing a map of antitrust laws, and then devising routes to smoothly bypass them. With its missionary zeal for consumers, Amazon has marched toward monopoly by singing the tune of contemporary antitrust."
What if that statement was correct? Bezos comes from D.E. Shaw, and it's known that the old sphinx takes the long view.
On further thought, based on my experience working with general managers/executives, I suspect they were following their noses more than making any elaborate plans.
A big advantage they had (and continue to have), was being embedded in a data rich software/online context AND the organizational drive to use it to their advantage.
Well - its not so much about that, but more about what Bezos et al were looking at.
The Yale law article is critical of a change in thinking that may have enabled the outcomes of amazon's behaviors : "Due to a change in legal thinking and practice in the 1970s and 1980s"
(edit typos)
The Amazon brand "Goodthreads" Oxfords I wear to the office are very impressively well made for the price. Compared to the Target "Goodfellow & Co" ones at the same price there's a higher level of quality and finish. They're better than the Banana Republic ones I had at half the cost.
If you need to wear expensive clothing to show how rich you are, donate 10k to the top ranked give well charity, buy a five dollar t-shirt and I will sew your reciept on it. Much more efficent than throwing more money on Raulph Lauren.
Same with ads. They know what the search terms are and how to exactly target those ads.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/demand-for-batteries-is-shrinki...
I was able to read it via a google search: https://www.google.com/search?q=duracell+energizer+high+pric...
From the article:
Shoppers are paying more for disposable batteries even though the proliferation of toys and consumer electronics powered by built-in rechargeable batteries has reduced U.S. demand.
That is because the two biggest disposable-battery brands, Duracell and Energizer, control over three-quarters of the market. As both focus on profits, they are no longer offering deep discounts as they did when they were racing for market share.
Batteries on average cost 8.2% more than a year ago, while prices in the overall household-care segment rose only 1.8%, according to Nielsen. At a time when prices are stagnating on everything from toilet paper to diapers, such pricing power for a product that is increasingly obsolete has confounded shoppers.
Also wow this is terrible reporting. "Around 2009..." is it too much effort to find a real date?
Everyone knows that in a month of Sundays you aren't going to get anything near that '54 mpg combined' figure shown on the sticker for that Prius but you will get more miles per gallon in that car rather than that GM dinosaur advertising '14 mpg combined'.
1. https://amzn.com/B00MNV8E0C
A consumer need only be "burned" once to form or strengthen the perception that rechargeables are an inferior good.
Oh, and where are we on the capacity front?
That is lower under extremely light loads than the best alkalines, but crosses over at a bit over 12 hours constant runtime since load has a relatively small effect on NiMH capacity, but a huge effect on alkaline capacity.
> A consumer need only be "burned" once to form or strengthen the perception that rechargeables are an inferior good.
Alkalines can leak corrosive electrolyte and destroy devices. This is a fairly well-known issue, but it doesn't seem like "always use rechargeable batteries so you don't ruin your stuff" is a widespread meme among the average consumer. I wonder why that is.
It's probably safe to say that the average consumer can't be bothered with anything that isn't LSD. The fact that another option even still exists hurts the overall branding, if you will, of the product category.
> That is lower under extremely light loads than the best alkalines, but crosses over at a bit over 12 hours constant runtime since load has a relatively small effect on NiMH capacity, but a huge effect on alkaline capacity.
Then we've reached parity, assuming identical size and at least close-enough weight. Is size identical (or smaller for NiMH)? Last I handled some, weight seemed comparable.
Now that we have, take a look at when that happened. More importantly, take a look at when that happened at an affordable price point. Compare that to when NiMH first started gaining popularity and what the (price-competitive) capacities (and self-discharge rates) were then, keeping in mind that's what formed consumer perception.
Total elapsed time of product existence may not be the best metric for perception change, but it'll at least give you a starting point.
> Alkalines can leak corrosive electrolyte and destroy devices. This is a fairly well-known issue, but it doesn't seem like "always use rechargeable batteries so you don't ruin your stuff" is a widespread meme among the average consumer. I wonder why that is.
I can think of two reasons. The first is that a "fairly well-known issue" isn't a well enough known issue. Suppression of bad press (or word-of-mouth) is likely the impetus behind large battery brands replacing even fairly expensive ruined electronics when customers complain to them.
Secondly, the relative frequency of the two is vastly different. One ruined flashlight (or even Garmin or whatever) every few years (though I think it's really more like decade-plus) sticks in the memory much less distinctly than having ones TV remote stop working every week or having that same flashlight never work (because one only uses it occasionally, maybe not even monthly).
There's no mystery here.
That's probably true. Unfortunately, that larger mAh number is always going to tempt people. Some heavy users do go for the higher capacity with a full understanding of the disadvantages, but that's not the majority of the market.
> Then we've reached parity, assuming identical size and at least close-enough weight.
Eneloops came out in 2005. Their capacity hasn't changed, though the service life of later versions is longer and the self-discharge is even lower. The 1000 charge cycles and 75% charge after a year of the original was entirely acceptable for consumer applications. I don't see a size difference between a 4th-generation Eneloop AAA and a random Duracell alkaline, but I don't have calipers to measure precisely. NiMH batteries are heavier than alkalines, but I suspect this is insignificant in most consumer applications. Disposable lithium batteries that can substitute 1:1 for alkalines are lighter than either, with higher capacity.
And there's part of your answer as to why a consumer might try rechargables and still reject them, even today: self-discharge too high.
> Eneloops came out in 2005.
So 13 years ago, whereas NiMH was 1989, or a 16 year spread. Wait at least another 3 years. Actually, wait until only LSD is readily available. Then wait the number of years until how long it will have been from then since 1989.
> I don't see a size difference between a 4th-generation Eneloop AAA and a random Duracell alkaline, but I don't have calipers to measure precisely.
The specs are probably available, but the more important question isn't whether your particular Eneloops are small enough, but if the vast majority (and AmazonBasics and if there's any other popular enough brand) are.
Tiny variations in size can not just prevent the battery from going in in the first place, but, worse, keep it from coming back out.
My camera, laptop, smartphone, kindle, etc all have their own rechargable battery, so what is left is mostly my Ikea tradlos, kitchen scale and car keys (plus associated stuff that i forget and which therefore can be assumed not to need all that much recharging) which all runs on the super small batteries (2032? 3220? something like that), that I haven't seen as a rechargeable model.
No doubt this will change with kids, but until I have them they won't matter.
Higher self-discharge (loss of charge when not in use) offers more capacity, and only extremely low-drain devices will last marginally longer with alkaline.
There are Li-ion button cells such as 2032, but their voltage range is higher than the disposables and their capacity is quite low. Their applications are fairly niche.
Possible counterpoint: getting a Li-ion 14500 confused with a AA and putting it in an incompatible device is bad.
Just keep a couple extra charged and ready around the house that you can swap in if necessary.
It would not surprise me to learn that the designers of a consumer electronic device did a bad job, but I'd describe not working with 1.2V batteries when a device is intended for AA or AAA to be a pretty major design flaw.
[0] https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Amazon%20basic%20...
That seems plenty long for something like a TV remote, if "run" includes the amount of time that buttons are depressed.
> It would not surprise me
This is inconsistent with your original comment that claims "a little surprise".
Consumer behavior responds to actual products, not someone's standard of engineering design.
TV remotes are pretty low-drain, to the point that most people probably wouldn't notice their battery runtime unless asked to observe it. A more compelling argument for NiMH in devices like that would be that alkalines often leak electrolyte that can corrode and damage a device wile NiMH is nearly immune to that kind of problem.
None of which matters if the device won't actually run on NiMH.
I guess the history is relatively tough to research these without having lived through it, since that's before the popularization of the web.
An interesting more modern use case is Apple's wireless keyboards when they used AAs. I'd suggest you check that out.
> I am not surprised that such a design flaw exists
I'd strongly suggest you consider the complexity, cost, and efficiency tradeoffs involved in RF (and other analog) silicon design, especially in miniaturized consumer products, before characterizing certain decisions as flaws.
Sometimes, worse is better.
> TV remotes are pretty low-drain, to the point that most people probably wouldn't notice their battery runtime unless asked to observe it.
That's my point. What they notice is how often they have to change (or recharge) the batteries. Historically, with rechargeables, that's been way too often.
To be fair, anecdotally, I've noticed this with some cheaper/off-brand alkalines, as well.
> A more compelling argument for NiMH in devices like that would be that alkalines often leak electrolyte that can corrode and damage a device wile NiMH is nearly immune to that kind of problem.
I think "often" is, at best, an exaggeration. Do you have published numbers to back that up?
My impression based on personal experience is that during the normal, useful life, it is vanishingly rare. I've only ever had leakage damage occur from fully-discharged (usually through self-discharge after over a year of disuse), and that was replaced by the battery manufacter, one of the advantages of paying more for brand-name.
I will almost always characterize a tradeoff that renders a device incompatible with rechargeable batteries that are commonly used in the appropriate form factor, or that causes the device to turn off before the majority of the energy in the battery has been used to be a flaw. I'll stipulate that it's probably usually a business decision rather than an engineering failure.
Incompatibility with rechargeable batteries is a hard no-buy from me as a consumer for almost any portable electronics.
> Do you have published numbers to back that up?*
I don't. I suspect people who have numbers about this (battery makers) really don't want to disclose them. My perception that alkalines leak often comes from moderating /r/flashlight. I've also seen it in person quite a few times, mostly with devices belonging to friends or family that aren't used often.
I still think you're ignoring history as well as exaggerating "commonly". Even alkaline wasn't the first primary cell chemistry type. You impliy that it's trivial to add rechargeables to the existing engineering for multiple chemistries with actually similar voltage profiles, without showing how.
> a business decision rather than an engineering failure
A distinction without a difference. The engineers are there to support the business, not a future armchair critic's ideal of excellence.
> I suspect people who have numbers about this (battery makers) really don't want to disclose them.
Certainly the manufactuers don't want to disclose numbers for consumer products. However, if it were as often as you suggest, I would expect there to be numbers, after all these decades, from someone like Consumer Reports.
Also, there's a reasonable chance that industrial versions have published numbers.
> My perception that alkalines leak often comes from moderating /r/flashlight.
Is that a forum where commenters tend to report such experiences with full data (numerator and denominator, including when the numerator is zero), or are they more likely only to complain at failure?
Are they representative of the average consumer's usage patterns?
> I've also seen it in person quite a few times, mostly with devices belonging to friends or family that aren't used often.
As I mentioned, this is consistent with my own personal experience. However, because this is subject to (a weird backwards version of) Survivorship Bias, I come to the opposite conclusion.
Put another way, it's likely that some huge proportion, if not all, of alkaline batteries will leak (perhaps even catastrophically) if left sitting around long enough. The key here is "long enough". Since the vast majority of users actually remove and discard way before that point, it's too rare in practice.
Even if NiMH did not exist, not being able to operate with batteries below 1.2V wastes the majority of the capacity of an alkaline. I think that's a valid criticism of almost anything in consumer electronics. It requires a very good excuse before it should be considered acceptable.
Furthermore, anything relatively recent should be able to use NiMH as a matter of compatibility with batteries a significant minority of consumers have, and for environmental responsibility.
> Is that a forum where commenters tend to report such experiences with full data
Of course not. I suspect data like that about consumer products is not available to the public at all, though there are some scientific studies on alkaline battery leakage as a phenomenon (the first one I found was paywalled).
> Are they representative of the average consumer's usage patterns?
Probably. Regulars almost never use alkaline batteries, so when people post about that, it's usually their first post. They're not collectors, hobbyists or heavy users, but people who encountered a problem and thought "I bet there's a subreddit for that". (We have 35K subscribers)
Please unpack this a bit to make sure it's not a strawman.
1.2V is just a nominal voltage, just like 1.5V nominal. Fully-charged open-cell voltages are above 1.25V and 1.6V, IIRC, though that is, of course, irrelevant. What matters is voltage under load, at all possible loads for all consumer devices.
Even if nickel chemistries have flatter discharge curves, they still slope downward, and that voltage can drop below 1.2V.
Their voltage also doesn't bounce back when load is reduced. Engineers deal with real-world usage, not contrived benchmarks where a cell is taken from full charge to flat at constant current.
What consumers are actually saying is that real-world rechargables don't work in certain real-world devices, while alkalines do. They make no claims about specific voltages. That's on you, so it's up to you to show that a particular voltage cut-off is the problem and that the same device ends up using only half the alkaline's capacity. Otherwise, you put up a strawman to knock down.
Rechargeable batteries remove the loss aversion associated with ensuring the batteries in a device are fresh, as there's essentially no extra cost to recharging a battery that may still have significant energy in it. Modern NiMH does not develop a permanent memory effect, and rarely even develops a temporary one.
I'm fairly sure it's the latter.
AmazonBasics isn’t a white label, it’s a brand in of itself, with consistent quality.
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazonbasics-house-bra...
https://www.amazon.com/Rain-Design-mStand-Laptop-Patented/dp...
https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-DSN-01750-SL-Laptop-Stan...
Interestingly though, the amazonbasics version doesn't hit the first page for laptop stands while the Rain version still does.
I'm curious, does this mean that Amazon doesn't prioritize their own products in the search algorithm? I've felt that in the past Amazon is usually ahead of the game on legal issues - like when they started collecting state sales taxes across the board, years before the Supreme Court ruling. Sooner or later, we're going to see court precedent and laws regulating search algorithms for anticompetitive behavior to supplement the more broad antitrust laws so maybe Amazon is keeping out of it to avoid any problems later. As an Amazon shopper, I've gotten used to the Amazon Basics icon and I'm sure that alone has marketing advantages over the Rain product entry.
IME this is a fairly typical price ratio. Sometimes they are much closer though. Of course Amazon ships it in 2 days instead of weeks. The "Bezos tax" is largely paying for the very convenient logistics of US warehousing.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/ELM-327-V-2-1-BT-adapter-Wor...
https://www.amazon.com/Mestart-Bluetooth-Diagnostic-Scanner-...
But the point is, search for any popular product category on both sites and you will see largely the same items, with Amazon typically somewhere from 2-5x as expensive.
It's value added service that brings convenience.
I buy stuff from ali from time to time, but I would never buy anything expensive there.
The same is true at Kirkland at Costco, Great Value at Walmart and Signature at Safeway/Albertsons. You can buy Signature batteries at Safeway. Brands clearly add a brand tax which is unjustified. They have larger distribution/scale than store brands, yet they charge more. Market forces are driving prices down and that is a good thing.