MtGox: Announcement of Commencement of Civil Rehabilitation Proceedings [pdf] | Hacker News Reader

MtGox: Announcement of Commencement of Civil Rehabilitation Proceedings [pdf]

mtgox.com

175 pointschollida173 comments

(Question from the FAQ) Although I have not filed a proof of claim by the filing deadline for the bankruptcy proceedings, can I file a proof of claim in the civil rehabilitation proceedings?

(Answer) Those who have not filed proof of claims in the bankruptcy proceedings or who have filed proof of claims after the filing period had passed (i.e., the date of the investigation of claims, May 25, 2016), may file proof of claims in the civil rehabilitation proceedings. We plan to post further details on this website.

If I'm pretty sure I had money in Mt Gox but I'm not sure how much, how could I ever file a "proof of claim"? It's not like Mt Gox was sending depositors balance statements every month or something.

I had money in mtgox. I tried checking for proof of claim a few months ago and their website was broken.

Same here. I have no way to find out how much I lost, so I can't claim :(

The MtGox database was hacked and leaked in 2014, including balance info. It's available here:

https://archive.org/details/MtGox2014Leak

DO NOT USE THE EXECUTABLE IN /backoffice/Bin/TibanneBackOffice.zip - IT IS MALWARE

Unzip /backoffice/Exports/mtgox_balances.zip.

Your user ID is a UUID, and can be obtained from your Mt.Gox account creation email, from the account confirmation link (example, sanitized)

ht_ps://mtgox.com/signup/validate?ID=1111aaaa-bbbb-cccc-dddd-eeeeeeffffff&Code=1234567890123456

Search or grep for this UUID in the unzipped mtgox_balances file and you should have values for BTC and your primary currency. Divide these values by 100000000 to get actual amounts.

The 'stamp' column appears to be a timestamp of last update of these values, and the last date in this leak with significant activity is 2014-02-25.

It's a little absurd a leak itself is infected with malware and malicious intent. The current state of Bitcoin and cryto is litterally filled with pirates and thives. I've personally been burnt for a decent amount and I am very tech savvy. Can you imagine your parents trying to navigate the cryto environment?

Yep. Not viable for people like that unless and until an exchange has the same protections and guarantees they expect from a traditional bank.

Amazing! I found my purchase and the exact amount of BTC I was holding. It's not massive but feels great to get some closure on this.

At least for some time, on mtgox.com you could log in with your original credentials and check your balance to make a claim. Not sure how that's going to be handled now.

The complete trade history of every MtGox customer up to 30.11.2013 was leaked in 2014, you can find your own trade records in the leak. However, the leaked trade records didn't contain emails/names that you can search for, so you need other details to discover what your userID is. This page may be helpful: https://bitcoin.tax/mtgox

If you registered at MTGox before mid-2011 you can use the user database leak from around then to find your userID, which you can then use to search the trade records.

I did a quick look, and balance info appears to be available through 2014-02-25, if the 'stamp' field in the mtgox_balances file is to be trusted.

I wasn't sure if I had a balance myself so I just went through this.

Download this file WARNING FILE CONTAINS VIRUS, DO NOT RUN EXECUTABLES INSIDE ZIP. To be safe, extract the files inside MtGox2014Leak.zip\backoffice\Exports __ONLY__: https://archive.org/details/MtGox2014Leak

The exports folder contains 2 zip files, one contains a list of transactions in csv format, the other contains the output of a sql query displaying all balances.

Go into your e-mail records and find any transaction id, it will look like a v1 UUID (example: 682b3d0a-67d7-4b62-8ed4-4e1d39d54a69)

Look for it inside the btc_xfer_report.csv. The UUID before it on the same line is your wallet.

Look for your wallet UUID inside the mtgox_balances file. If it's not there you either didn't have a wallet at the time of the dump, or your balance was 0.

Try checking this out by signing in with your original Mtgox account: https://claims.mtgox.com

Also, more info here: https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgoxinsolvency/comments/8t0lbq/lat...

As per the FAQ, the claims system has been disabled until the trustee is ready to accept claims again:

"Further, due to the stay of the bankruptcy proceedings, MTGOX bankruptcy claims filling system (the “System”), which was being provided on its website, has been temporarily suspended. As in the bankruptcy proceedings, the Civil Rehabilitation Trustee is expected to accept the method of filing a proof of rehabilitation claim through the System in the Civil Rehabilitation Proceedings as well. Therefore, please take note of your user name and password registered on the System."

[1] https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20180622_announcement_en.pdf

Interesting claim:

Q15) How was the Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash sold?

A15) As in sales from December 2017 to February 2018, upon consultation with cryptocurrency transaction experts, Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash were sold in a manner that had no effect on market price and not by ordinary sale on an exchange

Wasn't there a paper that showed a strong correlation between a the time of the bitcoin transfers from MtGox and subsequent strong decreases in BTC prices?

Even if it wasn't sold directly on an exchange the recipient of the bitcoin could have transferred and dumped the coins on an exchange.

They could also have sold an existing position to net their new exposure to zero.

Also, people were watching those addresses. So when it was sold off-exchange, people still could see it and react.

If the market assumes "coins are moving" to be equivalent with "coins are being sold", then the market is stupid.

The coins could have been moved around for other reasons than to sell them. The coins could also have been sold at certain price at a certain time, but with a contract that says it won't be moved until a time in the future.

The market did not react to coins being sold. It reacted to coins being moved and it made certain assumptions.

As far as I can see, the trustee has done everything correct regarding the sale (not flooding the market). It's just the market that is so volatile that it reacts to every tiny thing that happens.

I don't remember if the post mentioned the specific receiving addresses but it's actually possible to look at where the coins were sent to to figure out if they belong to an exchange.

>If the market assumes "coins are moving" to be equivalent with "coins are being sold", then the market is stupid.

And yet, whoever sold off at that time is probably pretty happy with themselves.

>The coins could have been moved around for other reasons than to sell them.

In general yes, but for those coins in particular no. All of the coins were swept into the trustee's wallet. At that point the trustee could not do anything with those funds other than to sell off some of them. If all of the funds were moved then sure, maybe it's some other reason or the trustee was handing control over to another party or something, but only moving a portion of the funds after they had all been secured without touching the rest can only mean one thing.

Right. Just in general, someone who wanted Bitcoins got them, and if they hadn't they would have most likely sought to acquire them by other means. Of course it has a market impact.

Just read it through and it seems that:

a) any owed assets will be paid in Bitcoin, unlike the bankruptcy proceedings which gave you fiat at (I believe) the rate when mtgox went under

b) a form will be posted to mtgox.com to fill out and send to them before October 22, 2018

Has anyone who filed in the bankruptcy proceedings got any money back? If so did you get it all back?

Had 2 BTC in there. My claim was approved and everything, but I haven't heard of anybody getting anything back yet.

Ok interesting. Maybe their plan is that once all the claims are in, if total valid claims amount < recovered coins, everyone (who filed) gets full amount back. Hopefully anyway

Had cash in there. Haven't received anything.

I left a small fraction of a bitcoin in my mtgox account years ago, because I couldn't be bothered to look up the exact decimal value when I transferred it out. I bought at I believe $8. At the time, it was worth a few cents. Today I think it's worth something like $3k.

There is no obligation to return the current market value. To make you whole, you would get 8 back.

He used $8 to receive in exchange a certain amount of bitcoin. What he lost when Mtgox filed for bankruptcy was bitcoin, not USD. To make whole, shouldn't you receive what was lost?

Is there precedent to be repaid losses in line kind?

That's not how bankruptcy works. He effectively made an unsecured, interest-free loan to Mt Gox for $8. The only thing he's entitled to in the event of default is that $8, what the company used his loan for is irrelevant.

I think OP meant he left $8 worth at the time of BTC in his account, not $8 USD.

It doesn't matter whether his $8 was in the form of BTC or not, all he did was make an $8 loan. Sure, the loan contract might have stated he could've accepted BTC instead of cash at withdrawel, but that's completely irrelevant once the loan issuer entered default. At that point OP is obliged to accept JPY as restitution, per the bankruptcy laws of the relevant jurisdiction.

That's precisely what isn't happening; if it bankruptcy that would be the case, but civil rehabilitation is allowing some portion of the BTC to be returned.

That's why people are so excited about this news.

What's the current value of BitCoin against USD relative to the price Mt Gox went under? (I do not know where to go to conveniently answer that question and I'm sure there are many who will read this who will.)

$6,000 today, $450 back then

BTC was priced at ~$825 on 2/1/2014 when Mt Gox disabled transactions, and is around $6,150 now. Provided they're able to pay out ~13% of each claim, claimants will at least be able to "break even" on the freeze (ignoring, of course, BTC's astronomical gains in the last 4 years).

You forget that on Mt Gox, the price dropped to something like $125 before they shut off trading... I know because I bought some at that price just before they went dark

Same here. Everyone was fleeing from BTC like rats from a ship. Luckily I managed to sell everything I had when it was close to $1000 and buy all the BTC I could when the price dropped to two hundred something.

One Bitcoin is currently worth about $6000. The spike that killed MtGox topped out around $1200 before falling back down below $400 a month later and then as low as $150 over the following year. On the day that they officially filed for bankruptcy in Japan, it was somewhere around $600.

xe.com tracks bitcoin vs other currencies,

https://xe.com/currencycharts/?from=XBT&to=USD&view=5Y

I am a ~1BTC debtor of MtGox, and while I understand that this is a positive development for those with substantial assets, I kind of just want to get something and move on.

The fact that I now have to dig through my paperwork and refile another claim, and maybe wait another year or five is annoying.

Your claim was worth around $483 plus some interest. With this CR your claim will be worth that plus over 15% of what a BTC is worth in those N years. Your claim will likely be doubled, surely that's worth under an hour of your time scanning your passport again?

If I were actually sure to get that money, of course. I'm not as confident as you are.

Let's put it this way. If I were to offer you my full stake of whatever I am due from MtGox in the next 5 years, would you pay me $450 right now? (Assume I can prove to you that my original claim of not quite a bitcoin was valid)

Yes. That's quite a good deal, the trustee has already secured cash backing for the cash value of your claim.

Cool. I'm in. What sort of proof do you want me to provide?

Shit, now I actually have to come up with the money ;) In July the trustee is going to announce how the claims are supposed to be made. I'll send you another message when that's clear so we can set something up. If I forget or try to chicken out you can contact me on mail at tinco dot nl.

No no no. No fair kicking the can down the road. :)

I have to decide how I feel about this now, and how I feel about it now is "well, my chance of a payoff just got more uncertain".

The longer we wait, the less uncertainty there is.

If you think I should be happy about the news, then you should want to take the risk right now not in a few months after whatever new information comes out.

In my head the big uncertainty is how long the claims procedure is going to take, and how long the determining of the final CR plan is going to take. The estimates seem very optimistic to me, so I totally understand your hesitance in feeling good about this development. But I can't buy your claim if I don't know what is needed to transfer the claim.

I understand.

I think I made my point. It looked like I was on track to get ~$400 sometime fairly soon. Now I maybe get a bunch more, but possibly further years down the line, and I have to file more paperwork and keep thinking about it and all that nonsense. That's not an update I'm happy with, even though the nominal claim I have is larger.

I'd rather just have the $400! And so would you.

Cheers.

Great news for people who were affected by the whole Mt. Gox incident.

It took a very long time but it's nice to see that there will be people getting their Bitcoins back. I'd assumed most people had given up hope or were at best thinking they would get the original fiat value.

Bravo to the trustee and those involved.

The trustee deserves no thanks. He has actively fought against this for years while drawing down a hefty fee for his office. This action was forced by the court.

If you hadn't realized, it was the trustee who held the BTC all these years despite the bankruptcy law saying all assets need to be liquidated for distribution which could've happened years ago at 10th of the price but no one seem to appreciate that part but complain on every move he makes.

Besides he has a lot of liabilities to cover going the unprecedented route that is cryptocurrency civil rehabilitation case, can't just blame him for not giving us BTC back sooner.

I would have been fine with liquidation and distribution years ago. That would have been financially better than the plan prior to civil rehabilitation.

I followed the instructions leading to https://archive.org/details/MtGox2014Leak but the mtgox_balances file when unzipped is an exe file.... where is the real file?

I have no idea how much I had there when this happened, is there any way I can know?

At least until a few months ago (haven't checked lately), on mtgox.com you could log in with your original credentials and check your balance to make a claim. Not sure how that's going to be handled now.

I don't see anywhere to login really.

instructions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17377474

There was also a document with everybody's makes and positions in fiat and btc. I'm not sure where to find it, but someone has to have a copy of that pdf.

Here: https://claims.mtgox.com

Also, more info here: https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgoxinsolvency/comments/8t0lbq/lat...

The creditors group: https://www.mtgoxlegal.com/

so I got this line ... what does it mean ? (I vaguely remember having about 2 BTC there ... ) 1384381780866513,"2013-11-13 22:29:40",716300,94b5ad4c-2a91-4e16-bb00-7c95a13a522b,456130f6a84dff2ee89fcb3d9a21c64a,NJP,sell,USD,1.99,875.6199,99.665,87268.639,5.25372,99.665,523.612,0,0,IL,02

"This is good news."

I thought the FBI seized the BTC and auctioned it all off?

You are thinking of Silk Road.

The DHS seized a lot of USD from MtGox but not their BTC.

They seized a bunch of money, but the bankruptcy trustee settled with them to receive about half back. It's about the only thing of value the trustee has done for the MtGox creditors in the past 4 years.

The Japanese government is responsible for this Japanese company. The FBI has little involvement.

You're likely thinking of the Silk Road.

yay cheap bitcoin

this is the largest and last Sword of Damocles hanging over bitcoin for now

You mean besides the whole tether issue?

And Nakamoto's coins?

Those coins are his. Without him there would be no bitcoin.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com