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Comment by salmon30salmon | Hacker News Reader

This is an absolutely terrible idea, and really hurts the lower class, especially in sprawled out places like the US. Often times, housing that low-income people can afford are not near their jobs or places of business. Sometimes, owning a personal use automobile is the only reasonable way to get across town to their jobs, or back to their home in time for an evening with their kids. Raising the cost of driving artificially directly impacts the lower income groups at a far more impactful rate than the higher income groups.

Long story short, a flat toll is an incredibly regressive tax and directly damages lower income communities.

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But the opposite is also true - cities have sprawled out to the degree that they have in part because driving is subsidized. You are quite right that addressing this too quickly can hurt a lot of people with limited means, but maintaining artificially low cost of driving isn't doing anyone any favors either.

> driving is subsidized

This seems like such a weird commend given that the top of this thread is advocating making drivers subsidize public transportation to encourage people to use it.

When ~90% of adults in the US drive it's hard to argue that driving is being subsidized by anyone other than people who drive. And that's before we account for the forms of tax revenue used for these subsidies that are paid for exclusively by drivers -- like gas and registration.

Drivers and Parkers get a huge free real estate subsidy.

People who don't drive are subsidizing drivers by not joining traffic.

From who? Parking is expensive, or paid for by business owners who want customers, or paid through the tax dollars of mostly drivers.

And if we're talking about subsidies let's take NYC public transportation as an example: They get $6.2B in fares and $8.2B in subsidies from:

- General fund (state & local). - Gas taxes. - Taxes on homeowners. - Property taxes. - Payroll taxes. - Tolls.

So if you want to be gung-ho about killing subsidies you'll be taking most public transportation down with it.

Per mile traveled are the tax dollars going to roads and parking really less than public transit?

> Parking is expensive

Not expensive enough to cover the costs.

> When ~90% of adults in the US drive it's hard to argue that driving is being subsidized by anyone other than people who drive. And that's before we account for the forms of tax revenue used for these subsidies that are paid for exclusively by drivers -- like gas and registration.

You need to look at the problem a little bit more. Designing a car-centered city and suburbs is expensive. You not only have to build highways to handle traffic, but your building options are limited because you need to build enough parking ; which results in sprawl, leading to less efficient use of the land. The higher costs due to this sprawl are undeniably borne by consumers. There are many other such hidden "subsidies" that have allowed such an overwhelming car-centric culture in the US.

Actually that's about "the market" externalizing costs in to the commons.

A better question is why haven't cities required sufficient housing near jobs to keep the cost of rent (let alone actual ownership of even a condo) competitive with the suburbs via supply control?

> A better question is why haven't cities required sufficient housing near jobs

Because to require a particular level of housing near jobs would require a prohibition on offering jobs without developing additional housing, in effect limiting jobs. Even if local governments are given the power to do that, politically, citizens demand that politicians do what they can to encourage job creation, not limit it by some other constraint.

You're taking this the wrong way; I'm not saying that jobs or housing should be directly limited. I'm saying that it's the job of the governance of a region to fulfill the needs of it's people.

Need for housing ~= {jobs} + {adult students} + {unemployed} + {retired} + {liquidity room} - {All housing in the market}

If the need for housing is positive than actions should be taken to accelerate and promote the development or re-development of new planned accommodations.

If the need is /dire/ (as it is for the large west coast cities) then that the government should take on the buy out and re-development of entire neighborhoods in to areas that are suitable for the continued health and prosperity of the whole (as private interests have clearly failed to do so or regulations have not allowed them to do so).

This planning and redevelopment should also include mass transit and other resources as well as more than meeting 'minimum code' for all construction. (My own views about the inadequacy of such codes are out of the scope of this topic.)

That would help prevent the decline of public transit.

There probably aren't a lot of people getting cheated, paying a lot in and getting nothing out, because so many people drive, yes. This is a valid point (although the distribution of infrastructure spending may not match the driving). However, the other trouble with automobile subsidies is they are invisible. An individual can't see the true marginal cost of their use, either direct (road wear) or indirect (sprawl, parking lot oceans).

Behavior would change dramatically if, e.g., you had a GPS tracker logging miles and you paid a monthly road use bill, and parking spots were all metered at their true cost.

Drivers already don't pay for the infrastructure they use. Both public and private are subsidized by the government, hence everyone.

Imagine the flip side: a city with functional public transit, where most poor people take subways and buses to get to work. Now someone proposes cutting down on public transit because you can always buy a car and that gives you more freedom.

Imagine how much burden it would be for a poor family to suddenly have to buy a car.

That's the cost America is passing on to poor families. It just doesn't look like much because it's been thoroughly normalized.

* That said, of course with change of policy some people will be hit and some poor people will be hit the hardest, so there should be mitigating measure.

> That said, of course with change of policy some people will be hit and some poor people will be hit the hardest, so there should be mitigating measure.

No it won't hit poor people at all if you fund it with progressive taxes and ticket sales. Car ownership on the other hand is not only expensive and unreliable (if you can't afford to buy decent cars), its ridiculously dangerous, increases stress and decreases well being. A well designed public transport assists the poor by making it much safer, cheaper and faster to come into the denser areas (typically with better/higher paying jobs) for work while living in lower COL suburbs.

I sincerely believe that impediments to more public transportation in the US is not chiefly financial; I believe its mostly due to what was before racism, and now is just NIMBYism. People don't want a bus stop or train station in their neighborhood, which will attract the homeless/poor/lower classes etc.

It's still partially racist. Just look at Atlanta and Detroit's lack of regional transit.

This is a really good point.

My life living in London would be hugely more expensive if I had to buy a car to get around - not to mention a lot worse since cycling is so much better for me and everyone else.

Isn't it a stereotype that poor people are the ones taking the bus/train?

Depends on the city. You can't really do it in Atlanta unless you can afford to live near a stop.

Rich and poor do both. Poor people have longer trips on BOTH transit and cars.

It’s the stereotype, not the reality. Check out the housing prices near frequently-served bus stops in your local city.

If it is automated, there is no reason the fee couldn’t be progressive.

In Stockholm it's done by cameras that read the license plate (automated payment once a month can be set up). So no, progressive taxing would not at all be impossible (but perhaps unpopular in the US).

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