Hacker News Reader

Comment by marcus_holmes | Hacker News Reader

A relationship between a manager and someone they manage compromises the effectiveness of both the manager and the team. As CEO, he is everyone's boss, so having a consensual relationship with anyone involved in the organisation is a bad thing.

If she got promoted, would it be because of her work, or her relationship with the boss? If she didn't get promoted, would it be because of her attitude, or her relationship with the boss? If she had an argument with a colleague, was it because she was an entitled slut? If he cut the budget of the department she worked in, was it because he was going off her?

It's pernicious and there's nothing you can do about it except simply not sleep with the people you manage.

If a CEO of a blue-chip like Intel doesn't get this basic rule of management, what other basic mistakes is he going to make? Bring a gun into work? ;)

View on HN

so having a consensual relationship with anyone involved in the organisation is a bad thing ... If she got promoted, would it be because of her work, or her relationship with the boss?

I'm not sure if I buy this completely. You see, a manager is human after all which means he/she is going to like some people more than others. There is always some kind of relationship with all the others, no way around it. Now obviously if the manager is only going to look at this relationship, his/her personal affection for others and not their work, and give some advantages over others based on that relationship, yes that is bad. Seeing that, and seeing an actual romatic relationship is just a more involved type of relationship, 'simply don't sleep with the people you manage' is obviously not enough. You should be able to put all or most personal things aside. As such I think these rules of no romantic relationships are a bit strange. Even if you follow that rule, but for the rest still manage people based on your personal relationship with them, it's still bad.

This exactly.

Or looked at it the other way: If two people have feelings for each other but suppress resulting actions due to company policy, how would that not influence decision making?

There's a difference between the feeling, "hey that manager I pass in the halls occasionally is attractive", and "I am in love with that manager".

The first is unavoidable, and although we try to correct for it in internal hiring/promotion processes by referencing assessments from multiple persons and making a data-driven decision, the second is completely avoidable by not dating the person!

After having graduated high school, most adults don't just fall into relationships. It is reasonable to assume intent is present once the connection between two individuals can be considered a "relationship" in this context.

Then why not ban friendships in the workplace? Surely they could result in the same kind of perceived biases (e.g. cliques).

surely you can list the differences between a romantic / physical relationship and a purely platonic one and understand why it is bad when it comes to imbalances in power right?

Unequal treatment in the workplace due to friendship is far, far, FAR more common than due to romance. In fact, I'm not sure I've ever worked at a company of more than a few people where it didn't happen.

yeah, it's one of those things that is really hard to avoid as a manager. Naturally you like some people and don't like others. Maintaining objectivity and evaluating people on their performance despite your feelings about their personality is hard.

This is why good managers don't aim to be friends with the people they manage. You may end up being friends because of team camaraderie and the amount of time you spend in the same building, but deliberately choosing to socialise with some (but not all) of the team is a bad idea.

And exactly the same thing happens if there is a perceived friendship in the team. Was the employee promoted because of their skills or because they're mates with the boss? Were they not promoted because the boss didn't want to be seen to be promoting a friend? Did they get into that argument because they're a brown-nosing jerk that thinks they're untouchable because they go for beers with the boss every Friday?

Both kinds of relationships can lead to power imbalances though. There's nothing special about a romantic/physical relationship in that regard. One can promote their (same sex, platonic) buddy for being their buddy, just as easily as they can promote their girlfriend/boyfriend.

You can ask those same questions about any attractive person or any person with powerful family members. Does that mean we can't employ those people either?

Of course not. If a manager runs a tight ship and treats their team fairly, then there shouldn't be anything wrong with a relationship. If as a manager you can't properly separate your emotions and friendships from your management duties, you aren't going to make a good manager anyway. The manager who is going to unfairly promote the person they are seeing is also going to unfairly promote the worker who they are best friends with over the worker who best deserves the promotion.

it's not about what the manager actually does. It's about the team's perception of it. He could be the best manager in the world, and have perfect separation between his emotions and his professional judgement. But the other people in the team will evaluate his decisions with the relationship in mind even if he doesn't. There will always be a question mark over his leadership decisions, even if those decisions were made for the best reasons.

Exactly. There are many successful cases of teachers, where their own kids are sitting in their classes.

According to the CEO logic this should not be allowed and would not work. It does. Are teachers better managers than CEO's? Apparently. But then they should get paid accordingly.

He wasn't the CEO when he dated an employee

what other basic mistakes is he going to make? Bring a gun into work? ;)

Why would you think that bringing a gun to work is a "mistake"? Does one's right to self-defense stop the moment they cross the threshold of their office door?

Beyond the complications you raise in management, it is just a straight major legal risk.

How can you argue or prove any relationship between boss and subordinate is consensual?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com