What the Airline Knows About the Guy in Seat 14C | Hacker News Reader

What the Airline Knows About the Guy in Seat 14C

wsj.com

32 pointspetethomas60 comments

I don't like strangers using my name. Police do that, debt collectors do that. Flight attendants and waiters should not do that.

I think it's an information asymmetry thing. I don't like it when people know more about me than the other way round, or at least don't like it when they make it obvious.

And specifically with birthdays. I'd be pretty annoyed if flight attendants started wishing me happy birthday, I hate it when people do that. I like to keep my birthday a private event. I barely tolerate work buying me a cake and singing happy birthday, and that's just because I get cake and everyone else in the office enjoys the whole thing.

It's okay if they call me Mr [Surname] but not if they use my first name. Probably some weird respect/familiarity thing.

>That's Mister Surname to you!

I deliberately didn't sign up for my workplace birthday planning calendar. I chipped in for others birthdays but didn't feel any need to get my turn. So they made mine April 1st.

Touché.

Ours was kept in a Microsoft Word file, so there was no automatic error checking. For years, I got away with telling them it was "February 30th." I'd rattle it off so easily, no one questioned it. We got a new admin assistant who caught it and then went through personnel files to put the list together.

Nice. I hope you went with Feb 29th after that which does exist. Means you only get the annoying birthday greetings once every four years.

Actually, I told them to take my name out or I'd file a complaint about going through personnel files and extracting birthday information as a privacy issue. (When that was done, they wrote down the year, as well.)

+1 for GDPR!

When i used to visit online forums, all of them made you register and put in your birthday. I think April 1st was the easiest date to choose. So every April 1st, I used to get tons of emails from forums telling me Happy Birthday.

I'd hate the birthday greeting, because it would be completely insincere. The staff don't know you, they couldn't care less about your birthday and they're only saying it because their computer told them to. And yet the airline thinks I'm going to be impressed by the greeting?

I'm positive that a significant amount of people will be genuinely impressed by it.

I have heard people rave about stuff like that. I think it's a Wizard of Oz type of thing. Once you pull back the curtain, the magic is lost. For us, the curtain is non-existent. For people who aren't familiar with computer systems, the technology is indistinguishable from magic.

People who aren't familiar with calendars?

There’s a big difference between understanding how calendars work and gathering the date of birth on whole populations of people and positively identifying each one.

I guess I would still be impressed, not by the sincerity of the greeting, but by the fact that the airline pays enough attention to the small details to actually train attendants to care about passengers birthdays among all the other things they have to do.

This has happened very rarely to me, but when it has, the head purser would usually be carrying the manifest or an iPad and clearly referencing it. That takes the creepiness out of it. It's a nice, but ultimately not terribly important, touch that they make a bit of an effort to personalise the greeting.

On one or two occasions (flying to a short stay at an outstation, and catching the same crew on the return), the attendant clearly recognised me, and made a point of saying hello, welcome back (not by name though, that would have been creepy). That's rare, and not really to be expected, though.

Privacy invasion and feeling creepy at the airline level is alright. I registered for the flight and paid for it through my ticket checkout. In addition, I'm usually part of their loyalty program when I fly. What I don't appreciate is what happened to me at a high end mall while on vacation in Spain. Walked into the store, the sales person smiled and me and called me by my name. I never met her before and that type of interaction was quite jarring. I was left wondering where have I seen this person for a bit, striking up a friendly conversation to jog my memory. Then she explained that a camera had captured and recognized me through my face on her screen. Creepy.

Honest question, are there any groups or categories of people who would appreciate that kind of mall experience?

I think even those desperate for connection or attention might not even enjoy it.

But from the seller's perspective it's a conversation starter and gets your attention. Sales at kiosks are a numbers game and the more people you talk to the more sales you'll make.

That would not sit well with me and would feel like an invasion of privacy.

But if I have an account with an airline and purchase a ticket, I'd feel pleased if they tried to make a connection in an authentic and kind way by relating to me with my name or with my beverage history. Probably not my past flight history though.

Any idea where the face image data came from?

People will get used to it. There was a time when American Express phone agents knew what customer was calling, but wouldn't mention their name until the customer did. The agent calling the customer by name was considered creepy. Now it's normal.

Unlikely, in the EU, because who the hell is going to consent to that in line with GDPR?

I think it’d be a lot of (evil) fun to form a crowdfunded entity with the sole purpose of suing companies that egregiously violate privacy norms. Given the level of support for the GDPR in many quarters, I think funding goals can be easily reached. Some lawyers might also want to jump on the bandwagon and make themselves a name (and profit).

In European Union legal systems does not have extensive compensation for damages like in US. Instead of class action lawsuits the government (consumer agencies) represents non-corporate interest.

So what means exist for consumers to seek redressal in the event of wrong doing by a corporation? Or should they just write to the relevant agency and hope that it picks it up?

I know that the EU competition commission does some solid work, but judging by some of the laws passed (I mean the recent internet copyright law, and the past anti-piracy laws), it’d seem the news and media companies have got the agencies deep in their pockets.

> I think it’d be a lot of (evil) fun to form a crowdfunded entity with the sole purpose of suing companies that egregiously violate privacy norms.

Enforcement is one dedicated organization per country. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regula... for the possible sanctions such an organization could apply. It can be pretty minor.

There's a proposed EU law which is pretty much terrible. GPDR is great (IMO).

How does it work - can people actually report violations to this enforcement agency? How hard/likely is it for a company to simply buy their way into these agencies?

> How does it work - can people actually report violations to this enforcement agency? How hard/likely is it for a company to simply buy their way into these agencies?

I can't speak for all of Europe, but in Northern Europe this would be very unlikely to happen. The governments and agencies aren't flawless here either, but at least they are quite honest and uncorrupted.

Pretty much everybody who just clicks "I accept" by reflex.

So... pretty much everybody.

As a sidenote, I aboslutely hate it when they make you dial all the digits of your credit card and then when you reach a human being, you have to tell them the digits again.

Alas,the fault is with our profession. The risk is too great to assume the ACD properly routed the (effectively) out-of-band account details in lockstep with the voice traffic.

Privacy glasses maybe? Though you might have some far more serious issues with airport safety if you wear them.

http://www.reflectacles.com/

While I appreciate the intent & the technical solution, why should I be paying for anything to protect me from someone's unhealthy interest in my data?

Privacy is a human right. We should punish the offenders, not the subjects.

You could choose to live in a cave, not paying for water nor electricity, and not move more than 10km from your home in your entire life, but sadly the last people who tried at a massive scale died at age 30 and it was called "the Middle Age".

Seriously though, you could fight tooth and nail to have your privacy protected (GDPR lawsuit, whatnot) but it's time consuming, and surely you have better to do.

You could also ask why you pay for locks on your doors, when the things you buy are yours; why you have to pay for a parking spot; etc.

You may have misunderstood me. It's not about not wanting to pay for value -- it's about putting the right economic incentive to promote the behavior beneficial to the general public (and each individual).

I paid for my lock, but I did not fortify my home. That would be unreasonable, because the society I live in discourages theft, codified it in some rules and actively enforces them, to discourage the unwanted behaviors. And yes, I pay for this through my taxes. I believe I get value for money.

In a similar fashion I expect privacy intrusion to be frowned upon and policed. Surely I have better to do than filing GDPR lawsuits -- or searching for the latest privacy glasses. But I don't want to spend my time searching for such gadgets just because someone on the Internet thinks they're fine.

I don't want the privacy glasses in the very same way I don't want a fortress for a home. I hope you understand.

What I don't appreciate is what happened to me at a high end mall while on vacation in Spain.

Would you mind sharing which mall exactly was that?

La Roca Village in Barcelona

I'd believe that fashion firms are very sensitive to bad publicity. A lot of them have shops in that mall. Maybe if a number of them made complaints that they're receiving mails from customers that felt unconfortable with that kind of intrusion, it would be removed.

I'm sorry, I find it hard to believe. How would this even be legal? What database they were using? Sorry, it all makes no sense.

>> Then she explained that a camera had captured and recognized me through my face on her screen.

The store had a system capable of recognising the face of any person who would walk through its door? Like, any random person on the whole planet?

I think the biggest problem here is one not even mentioned: What happens when the information is wrong? Passengers swapping seats isn't all that uncommon -- I've done it many times to allow families to sit together -- but the computers aren't going to know that has happened.

On a recent flight I swapped seats with my girlfriend -- she wanted the window -- and the service director was clearly flummoxed by the fact that the man in front of her was "Elena" and the woman sitting next to me was "Colin". (I'm guessing that they've been told that they should never assume genders based on names, but she could clearly tell something was off.) In that particular case, the confusion was quickly remedied; but I can only imagine the embarrassment which would ensue if flight attendants start singing happy birthday to the wrong passenger.

We had a flight once where they had assigned my then six year old daughter to a seat on a separate row from the rest of us (me, wife and son) so naturally my wife took that seat and let me sit with the kids.

This was very confusing to the flight attendant. She was like "You need to sit in your seat!" to my wife and as we explained the error by the airline, she scolded us and said "but kids can't sit by themselves!" Uhm, no that's what we fixed... Rest of the flight she looked at us suspiciously as if we were up to something.

I wish United would spend less time trying to learn my name and more time actually understanding my complaints about their website. Like about their online security questions.

I don't have a particular favorite vegetable, and even if I did, a drop down with a handful of options is a silly way to secure an account.

They are. Soon you'll log in with your face, a flashier silly way to secure an account.

IMHO whether or not this is creepy depends a great deal on past experiences with the same company, whether or not I have built up a relationship of trust with them, and have come to expect (based on experience, not advertising) good service that respects me as a passenger and genuinely values my experience as much as how much more profit they can squeeze out of me.

Hence, if anyone from Lufthansa/Austrian/Eurowings, or the ground staff at Heathrow T2 used my name, acknowledged my birthday or otherwise used the personal information that I already know they have about me, I would probably be quite pleased and delighted. The trust I already have in that brand would increase.

Exactly the same behaviour from anyone connected with Stansted/Gatwick/BA/Ryanair/Easyjet would likely make me feel angry and invaded because all those companies already make me feel like a target, not a guest. So my negative trust would go further into the red.

https://outline.com/X8xWw2 in case you want to read the full article

blocked in my org. Do you have any other link? :$

http://archive.is/Vgxw3

GDPR should protect (at least) European citizens from this. If I share my info, it should only be used for necessary things, such as:

* sending my ticket to my place

* checking my identity at check-in

And then, addressing me as "Mr. Smith in seat 14C" or asking me what I want to drink really isn't a problem. Checking if I have connecting flights can be done without knowing my name. So, as GDPR dictates: everything else must be opt-in.

> Checking if I have connecting flights can be done without knowing my name

Not always. Many airlines (for example, American Airlines) will protect your connection even if you've purchased two separate tickets. And they'll do this across their entire OneWorld alliance of airlines, not just within the company. But unless you have added a frequent flier number, the airline needs multiple matching information (Name, DOB) to be able to make the link between your two reservations automatically. Otherwise, they would be unable to proactively rebook, hold the connecting plane, have someone meet you at the gate to rush you to the next gate, etc.

...or they could add a checkbox "I have a connecting flight [flight number]".

flights (at least mine) are often cancelled and rescheduled by the airline after purchase. Without actively being able to track an individual flyer between the connecting flights, just setting a connecting flight number (along with date and time) wouldn't work.

> [...]

> Sorry for the inconvenience ... Note that you will no longer be able to connect to the flight you selected [AF1234], please follow the link to reschedule with [Air France] https://brokenconnection/?nogo=UA4321&connection=AF1234

> [...]

> Many airlines (for example, American Airlines) will protect your connection even if you've purchased two separate tickets.

Wow, I'd never heard of this. How would this even work? I thought they always connections happen in a reasonable time, hence why you need to book them as connections... otherwise if you book impossible "connections" separately then do they just basically agree to give you compensation despite you not even giving them a chance to check if the connection was possible?

There’s a defined “minimum connection time” for each airport which you need to manually check when booking separate tickets.

Oh huh. It's not dependent on the actual flights? Just the airport?

Depends. But most airports define the MCT based on their primary usage So - are they primarily a transit hub? Endpoint? Etc.

This is quite a generic rant about airlines trying to make sense of passenger data. Nothing related to seat 14C. I mostly pay more and reserve the 12/13 row seats (emergency seats) because of better leg space. I’ve never had a hostess budge me with personal details.

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