I was indeed sloppy and did mix various aspects, and argued ad hoc against the examples given; alas that's the fate of quick discussions such as this one where the wording of arguments is not double-checked :) I think overall though that we both understand each others underlying positions well. Generalized, my point is that the business case for these less-tangible aspects of website development is hard to make. I'm sure you agree with the overall sentiment that these aspects are only worth doing for a business when there's an expected positive ROI, so now all we can do is argue over at which point that break even point lies. So at least we can agree that it's not very productive to further try convincing one another :)