Ask HN: Building something the customers don't know they want | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Building something the customers don't know they want

42 pointsyosho27 comments

Everyone at YC speaks of the mantra "Build something people want" but what if our customers don't know they want it?

That's part of the issue that my team and I are struggling with. We've built some really good online software that could really help small businesses. However, the industry that we're in is absolutely non tech savvy and use very traditional methods to do what our software could automate.

We've been struggling with selling our product because many people refuse to change and don't want to learn new technologies. How do we overcome this in a very traditional industry? It's too late to switch markets.

Is it just a matter of good sales and marketing?

View on HN

It concerns me where you say: We've been struggling with selling our product because many people refuse to change and don't want to learn new technologies.

If you are getting this product in front of true potential clients and they are not saying "wow we need this" then you might be in trouble. Even traditional industries now realise the value of technology and if it is going to save/make them money they wont be against new technologies (and for the few exceptions, stay away from them - they'll soon be dead).

So firstly you need to make sure you are building something that customers "don't know they want/need" as opposed to building something "they don't need or want". Just because you thought it was a great idea and could save money or improve processes doesn't mean they will. So if this is not a spinoff of software you have already done for a company I would suggest you do some serious market research to ensure you are not flogging a dead horse.

The next stage is then marketing. Firstly in doing your market research you should have identified some potential clients that said "yes this would be useful", so target them first. Then target their competitors. If this is a product that costs a lot of money then you can factor in having a sales team that really spends time selling the product to each client.

Then think about how you can market the product. It doesn't sound like your target users are likely to be doing Google searches for this product, they may not read anything online in relation to their industry, but are their industry magazines? Can you get cheap advertising in such magazines. Can you offer to write an article about how "tech is changing the industry" - you don't need to reference your product too much if at all - "Guest article by Yosho, CEO of XYZ Enterprises" will get things started.

And lastly don't forget about face to face with any local businesses that you might be able to work with. I did some work with a small consulting company that was looking for new clients, they decided to go to some conferences to try and get new clients. I found a website in the US that showed approximate turnovers for businesses in the area (can't remember the site but was government related) and we found more than 2,000 business with 10 mill a year turnover (their target clients) within about a 10 mile radius of their office. Here they were all about to get on planes to get clients that would have them on planes and away from family for years, and they had never tapped the 2,000 clients down the road. Anyone close to you involved in the industry you are targetting - cold call them, phone them and ask to meet them and show them what you are doing. If you are young (under 25 say) play the "I need guidance" card - you'll be amazed at how many people might be interested in helping. And never rule out getting these people involved - potential investors etc.

Good luck, but do check that you are building something someone wants before you go too far!

You need to refine your pitch.

You say you "could really help small businesses."

How, exactly? By increasing their revenue? Decreasing their costs?

If you can convincingly demonstrate a significant ROI, people will overcome their resistance to technology. At least, that's been my experience.

So: can you demonstrate a significant ROI? Do you have enough real-life industry experience to be able to write the business case on your software? Does your software solve a pain-point that they know they have? Or do they need to be educated on both the problem and the solution?

This is a good question. And you are right: the first "golden" rule is always held to be "build something people want".

I haven't looked at this quantitatively - I think it would an interesting study - but I wonder how many businesses started out building something that people already wanted, or instead built something that people didn't know they wanted. I reckon that a lot of products, particularly in technology, fall into the latter group. So don't despair.

As Michael Dorfman says: you have to be able to quantify either a) how much your product will increase revenue, or b) how much it will save in costs/overheads. If you can't do this you wont be able to sell your product - even if it's free. The overhead in learning a new technology will not be deemed worth it.

Even if you can quantify the value of your product, you still have to fight inertia. As you are discovering businesses have established ways of doing things. It might cost them a lot both in time and money to switch to a new way of doing things (a factor you'll need to consider in the ROI your product offers). Additionally an even bigger barrier to change is contractual relationships with suppliers, buyers and staff. So even if your widget is half the price and twice as good, if the customer is locked into a three year deal with another supplier they are not going to buy it.

You really need to understand your target markets' motivation for doing things the way they do them now, and the value that they derive from this. The value they see might not be the value you imagine - and if your products value is not aligned with this, it's going to be difficult.

So talk to your market, find out exactly what value they derive at the moment, assess how your product aligns with this, and how much it will cost them to change. Then value your product.

Yes, it is just a matter of good sales and marketing, in the same way that building your online software was just a matter of programming.

It's often said that it's better to have technical-only founders, because it's easier for them to learn the non-technical aspects of business than it is for non-technical people to learn the technical side. This is true, but it's predicated on technical people actually putting in the effort to learn.

I'm still learning sales and marketing myself, so don't take what I say as gospel, but I think the solution to your problem has two parts. The first part is an intensive, non-sustainable effort to win your first few customers. See edw519 for how to go about it. After you win your first customers, things will get easier, by which I mean possible.

Seeing other people have success with your product is an essential part of the sales process, so once you get your first few customers it won't be like pushing water up a hill anymore. It will be like pushing large rocks up a hill -- difficult, but not impossible.

The second part of your solution itself has two distinct parts: selling the problem, then selling the solution. You have to separate selling the problem out as a separate activity. Blog posts are part of this, but won't be enough by themselves. You'll have to figure out the rest on your own. Once you've sold the problem, you're ready to sell the solution. Pointing to other people having success with it will have much more effect than any of your logical reasoning as to why your solution fits the problem.

When people say a good product sells itself, they don't really mean it. It's like if we programmers say that with a good requirements document, software writes itself. What we really mean is that with a good requirements document, someone who knows what he or she is doing can write the software with minimal struggle and creativity.

Your next challenge is to become somebody who knows what you're doing in the sales/marketing area. Until you do this, it will be as hard to bring in an appropriately skilled sales/marketing person as it is for a non-technical founder to bring in an appropriately skilled programmer.

It sounds like you made the same mistake I made: built something first, then talked to customers.

Last year I had built a really nice marketing tool to help contractors (builders, plumbers, trades people). I sunk myself into the project for months on end, toiling and envisioning this disruptive tool for the industry... not once talking to any potential customers.

A few months in, I "launched" and tried to sell. It was a disaster. The market segment I picked had no interest in it. It was a problem of "teaching" them that what I was providing had value. But they were a group of non tech-savvy individuals. And nothing could really convince them to use my product.

For my next project, I'm going the Steve Blank route: get out and talk to potential customers, understand their problems, and let that guide what you will build.

How to overcome this? You need to find the early adopters. The tech-savvy users who do find value in your product. Get it in front of them, get their feedback, and sell!

If you can't convince the early adopters... then perhaps what you built can be applied to another market segment, one that would see value in your tool.

If you can't find another market segment... then that's probably the end of it. Fail early, fail fast. Learn from your mistakes and your next shot will make it farther.

Hi Yosho,

The ceteris paribus consequence of building something that your customers don't know they want is simply that you need better marketing.

Retube has made many good points, but without knowing more about your business I think it's difficult to give concrete advice.

You know your market, and somewhat tautologically, if your customers don't know they need you, and they need to know, then you need to tell them.

First, make sure that your customer feedback methodologies are valid. Make sure you're solving a problem and that it's not just something that's "nice to have".

After that you have to face the brutal possibility that the "very traditional methods" reach a certain threshold of ease/cost that it makes other options negligible. As a business owner you have hundreds of mini problems to solve. Once one is solved, you move on. You don't have the time to waste re-solving old problems, even if there is a newer, better solution.

But if you're certain your product is that much better, you have to start at the bud: new businesses. The businesses that just starting to learn to apply those "very traditional methods". Jump in there, offer them your better alternative, and get them to start using it. You're not gonna take over the market overnight, but slowly through word of mouth and good testimonials you'll get your customers to cross that chasm.

You're not alone. Except for Apple, Microsoft and some companies that give their product for free, almost everyone else is in the same situation.

One example: Intuit with QuickBooks. More than 90% of small business owners prefer to use pen and paper than a computer to do accounting. Probably they even prefer to chew Styrofoam than doing accounting. But, nevertheless Intuit is not doing bad.

What you need is competition, preferably a weak one. People will be able to better assess your value with something they can compare your product to; like that flopped Microsoft Office Accounting software.

Also, try to reach first the opinion makers, those that create a following (like accountants for QuickBooks).

To finish: everything in business is a matter of just good sales and marketing. Even good engineering is just part of it. If you don't have good sales you don't have a business; it's simple like that.

"More than 90% of small business owners prefer to use pen and paper than a computer to do accounting."

Uh, where does that come from? I have been running my own small businesses for 20 years and I have used a PC for accounting the whole time. I meet regularly with a group of small business owners and everyone of them uses a PC too. I would love to see the source of this idea.

I read it on Business Week magazine 4 years ago. There was an article about Microsoft releasing their accounting software as part of Office.

I suspect that you and your group of business owners might be different than the average. When the magazine mentioned small business owners they probably included a lot of non-computer savvy people: hairdressers, small farmers, pipe-fitters, etc.

The census site says there are almost 6 million small companies with employees http://www.census.gov/epcd/www/smallbus.html and this article says that QuickBooks has 3 million customers http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_36/b3949090_... . They would have a higher penetration if it was better software (it sucks to be a 20+ person company manufacturing with it, and don't even think about multiple warehouses) I think that 90% figure is a old wives tale, much like the nonsense quote that 90% of businesses fail in 5 years - see http://smallbiztrends.com/2008/04/startup-failure-rates.html . Sorry for the over zealous response, but this happens to be a sore subject for me.

I had an idea the other day that I think would make a useful side-project (probably short of a full start-up concept) but it suffers from a problem similar to yours. But not in the way that, presented with the solution, they wouldn't like it. More so in the way that they would never know to seek out that solution - it's a problem you might spend $50 on as a shortcut rather than 3-5 hours of professional time, but you wouldn't even know what to Google for if you suspected there was an alternative out there.

If you're getting the product in their faces and they aren't responding, that's one thing. If you just can't reach them (short of doing it manually, one by one) then I guess that limits your SEO options and you might be best off targeting/advertising towards areas they might research/read.

Some great answers already here, but I'd just add this:

They don't know they want the product- np.

Are they aware of the problem that it solves? Can you make them acutely aware of the problem? (In terms of lost time, cost, etc.) And then, can you show that your solution is "morphine" for the problem? (rather than a vitamin for general well-being). And finally can you show them that (due to ease-of-use etc.) they can be relatively sure that it won't add its own set of problems?

If you can honestly do each of those steps, you're golden- get a killer sales-person and do it. If you can't honestly say yes, you have product issues to work out regardless of your instinct about it's efficacy.

"Refuse to change and don't want to learn new technologies" might be code for "the pain isn't acute enough to justify the effort of changing." How much are you really automating?

If it's a meaningful amount, there's a process in sales called "developing the need" of the customer (Read Spin Selling by Rackham). The process is basically asking them about how they do things and try to build a shared understanding of how much time/discomfort their current solution is costing them. Take a molehill and turn it into a mountain. Of course, it works best if it really IS costing them and they just don't think about it.

If that is a purely technical feature that can't be marketed from business viewpoint easily, use prototypes or samples to demonstrate, walk them through the process you intend for them by explaining your vision.

If you're not working with some specific customer (but just throwing the product online and hope someone starts using it) then you better find at least one live, cooperative customer to work with (huge discounts or even for free if necessary) and see your own product through their eyes. That will help you understand most problems with the product or marketing.

You have to get your prospects to think that what you're offering was their idea all along.

How do you do this?

Get to know them. Spend time with them. Find out what their lives are like, what they have to go through to compete, and what makes them suffer. Jump into their pool at the deep end and learn how to swim. Walk through their warehouses, customer service departments, and general offices. Sit down at their computers and try to do their jobs. Get them talking.

Once they see that you are sincere and have something to offer, they will not be bashful. They will tell you everything you need to know to help them. This will do 2 critical things:

1. It will provide specific feedback about what you're building or have built, whether or not it makes sense for them, and what to change/fine tune/refocus. It they need it like that, chances are that many others do too. Your first prospects have unwittingly been the best focus group you could have assembled.

2. You will be offering exactly what they asked for so they will have few excuses not to buy. Do not underestimate the solid gold of this approach; it works incredibly well.

Call this good sales and marketing if you want but I never have. I just call it doing whatever it takes to help your customers. Becoming successful is a byproduct.

Thanks for the response. Yah we've considered meeting with the small businesses individually but that's just really time intensive. But we'll definitely take it into consideration.

> We've considered meeting with the small businesses individually but that's just really time intensive.

If you're not willing to work for it you'll fail. Sometimes you actually have to invest time -- lots of time in the right areas -- whether you think you have the time or not. Or would you rather just give up and fail?

Take an educational approach. And focus on case studies.

Give away your product for free to a couple of your prospects - hopefully well known in the industry. In return, feature a case study on them. How they used your product. And how it helped them save time / money etc.

Try getting these case studies published in industry trade journals.

Otherwise, just create a white paper with these case studies in it. And mail them to your prospects. And then follow up.

Thanks for all the responses, I don't want to give away too many specifics as of yet since we're still waiting to publicly launch. But I definitely appreciate the thoughtful comments everyone's given.

Our industry is in the outdoors market and we're targeting individual mom and pop vendors. Think sky diving shops or wine tasting tours.

Anyway, we're ramping up our sales and marketing efforts, we'll see how that goes =)

Maybe the cost of learning to use your application is higher than the potential future savings?

It seems to me in your situation it's all marketing and sales. You have to educate these people on what your product does and I'd start by helping them see they can spend more time selling and less time doing whatever it is your product does

If they don't want the result your software delivers you have a problem. If they do, focus on the outcome much more than how you do it and make sure they want the result.

They may not know the details of the solution, but they should know the details of the problem and it should be a very painful one. I am in this scenario where no one is asking for my solution, but when I describe the scenario everyone is like "Yes, I hate that!" and also "You can fix it? Awesome" If it is a big painful problem, then people will be willing to learn new technologies and change just to fix it.

How did FedEx do it? Nobody knew they wanted that.

> Is it just a matter of good sales and marketing?

I can't really remark on specifics, as I have no clue about the industry your targeting. However, hopefully some of this will click.

First, to answer your question: Yes.

Simple enough. However, what are your sales and marketing team doing? Obviously not selling. But how are they going about doing it?

Trade shows? Trade magazines? Cold calling? Flying down and meeting with people? All of these are methods my sales guys used when I started my company. Trade shows were the best. They let them promote their product, and actually talk to the people involved. They got to know their potential clients. You aren't trying to sell a product. Your trying to help them run a business.

You need a good feedback loop from your sales guys, too. They can't just sell. They need to market. They need to bring the clients to you, but also you to the clients.

Basically, you need to become apart of the industry you are targeting. Right now it seems like you are trying to sell something to them. That's not the right way to look at it. Basically, how can you help your industry.

You discount their reasons for not wanting to join as being traditional. Why? Not the reason they give you, but really, why? I find a lot of the reasons is that, in truth, the technology route is often more cumbersome for a large number of things.

But really, it all comes down to meeting the people in the industry and becoming apart of that industry.

I remember the first trade show we went to. Our booth had banners and marketing material, and my sales guys pimping the promise of a product we didn't have completed yet. We kept going back, and went to many more throughout the world. It's much easier to get someone to try your product after you've met face to face, shared a drink, or taken them out to dinner.

what is your sales process like, yosho? i would be very interested to hear more details.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com