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Comment by Delmania | Hacker News Reader

> Haven't they spied on Windows 10 users?

How is it spying when they present you with a full screen detailing data collection with the option to turn it off, and have several blog posts providing details.

> Do they not engage in patents racketeering?

It's not much of an excuse, but all tech companies do this.

> Haven't they killed Nokia and ruined Skype?

Didn't they give Windows Mobile one hell of a run? Like they tried for a decade and finally admitted defeat? And Skype, I don't know. I use it in a daily basis. It doesn't seem to be that bad.

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You actually can’t turn it off, and they still refuse to publish the complete list of what is collected. You need an enterprise version to disable as much as they will let you, and even then, they still force quite a bit of collection.

>> they still refuse to publish the complete list of what is collected

Seems like refusing to disclose what is collected would run afoul of GDPR. The law requires that "categories of personal data" be disclosed, and also that Microsoft's European customers have a right to a copy of their personal data. Are you claiming that Microsoft is not or does not intend to comply with GDPR? Or perhaps there is some other qualification implied; such as this only applies to non-European customers? If so what is your basis?

Or there's no PII in the collected data.

"This article describes all types of diagnostic data collected by Windows at the Full level (inclusive of data collected at Basic), with comprehensive examples of data we collect per each type" https://docs.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/configuration/windo...

there are other classes of data besides 'diagnostic data'. The additional word 'diagnostic' is a tell.

Below “Basic” is the “Security” level, which only enterprise can set. It’s a subset of Basic, but excluded from the disclosure. They refuse to say what that sends.

>they still refuse to publish the complete list of what is collected

They give you the option to fully inspect all the telemetry data your computer is sending, categorized by use.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/configuration/diagn...

incorrect. That page tells you about diagnostic telemetry, but there can be other kinds of telemetry.

Can you point to an example of telemetry that Windows is collecting that isn't documented and shown?

that's the entire point. We don't know, because they still won't tell us.

>> And Skype, I don't know. I use it in a daily basis. It doesn't seem to be that bad.

Likewise. I know they neglected the Linux client (which I used to use) for years and then replaced it with some new browser based thing. This 'ruined Skype' claim has been made several times with each Microsoft buys GitHub story. What exactly do people have in mind when they claim Skype was ruined?

People have fuzzy memories, and think Skype was a gold standard before Microsoft bought it...which is far from the truth.

The facts that I see:

The new UI is absolutely counterintuitive and badly designed. The Linux version is now based on Electron and requires a ridiculous 400MB of RAM just for the login screen. It subjects the CPU to ridiculously high loads, ca. 10 times higher than before when idling (easily saturating one core periodically). It starts to jerk and studder when the chatlog reaches any realistic length, making it unusable with more than 200 to 500 messages in the visible history. The Windows 10 client, which seems mostly identical, cannot get audio from any of my microphones.

> The Windows 10 client, which seems mostly identical, cannot get audio from any of my microphones.

I see. By all accounts the Electron based client is garbage. I use the 'classic' Skype client; a.k.a. Skype 7. It isn't based on Electron and works great for me with two different mics. So I guess I've missed out on all the fun with the new client.

Telemetry and analytics is a spyware. Let me give you an example. Let's say that Windows collects information on which applications were run and how much time they were used. Now let's say there is a competitor to Microsoft that uses Windows with telemetry option.

Even if the data is anonymous, Microsoft can filter it by range of competitor's IP addresses. Then by stuyding the list of used applications they can learn: how many employees the company has, how many of them use IDE (i.e. are developers), how many use Excel (marketing people), how many use social networks and chats (managers), how many man-hours they spend on development, how many DBAs are there, whether anyone works overnight or on weekends, when they have vacations etc. Now tell me it is not a spyware.

And by the way Google has similar powers because they have advertisement and analytics scripts installed on most websites, so they can spy on their competitors too.

UPD: looked through an article [1] and understood that I underestimated Microsoft. They even collect user account identifiers and hardware details. Microsoft knows about your computers more than your sysadmin.

[1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/configuration/windo...

You do realize that by posting that link, you contradicted yourself? How many Microsoft be spying on you if they write articles detailing what data is collected?

If you don't like data collection, then don't use Windows 10. Plenty of Microsoft tools work on macOS and Linux. But don't accuse them of spying on the user when they have made efforts to be transparent about it.

What you said makes no sense. Talking about doing something is the same as not doing something?!

There's a reason the GDPR requires explicit opt-in: companies are expert at making their spyware look harmless and know that most people won't bother to change the defaults or won't understand what's happening.

No, what I was disputing was the claim that what Windows 10 collects is spyware when Microsoft makes it a point to ask you what data you want to share (if any) and then has several posts written describing in detail what they collect and how to turn it off. Spying implies the company is doing it in secret, and yet here we are talking about and referencing public documents that describe it. That is not "spying".

"Data collection" is implemeted not only in Windows 10, but also is backported up to Windows 7. So basically it is now in every supported and regularly updated Windows installation.

Also I remember that detailed articles about "data collection" appeared only after it was shipped and caused some negative reaction. While publishing an article is a good idea, it is unlikely that everyone will read it. A better idea would be to display a popup for Windows users saying something like "Hi there! We are going to look what programs you are running and what else do you do at your computer to improve your experience. Hope you are fine with that.".

Technically it might be not a spyware, but if the user doesn't realize that their actions are being tracked, it still would look like a spyware to them. Or should we better call it a "trojan" software? A definition from Wikipedia says "In computing, a Trojan horse, or Trojan, is any malicious computer program which misleads users of its true intent." and Windows telemetry program matches that definition.

For example, in an article about "basic" telemetry [1] they mention that full command line of an application can be recorded, potentially including any private data and passwords.

[1] https://docs.microsoft.com/ru-ru/windows/privacy/basic-level...

I'm really not sure here but I was under the impression that they had started doing the full screen detailing data collection thing after they had gotten caught doing it without it?

They made it clearer and easier to review and change, but data collection was always toggle-able in Windows 10. A lot of people just hit "Express Setup" and then were surprised when the defaults were full collection.

The Privacy Panel in the new Settings applet for example has always existed.

It was not toggle-able. You could only opt out of an ill-defined subset of an ill defined set of collected data, including, but not limited to all user inputs performed on that system. You would know as much if you had read the material published by MS on this. Only with the recent update do they offer a tool with which to inspect at least part of the actual data sent to MS. There is however no proof that the data shown in that tool is complete (even though I believe that they truely intend to show everything - despite their traditionally pushy methods, they are not Facebook).

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