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How to Android without Google

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I run Android without Google. I bought a new phone, and when I powered it up, it tried to get me to "sign into Google". I declined. I downloaded F-Droid. Then I disabled every Google thing that could be disabled.After that, all apps came from F-Droid. Mail is via K-9 mail and an IMAP server. Browsing is Fennec F-Droid, which is Firefox minus some unwanted Mozilla-calling stuff. Mapping is ZANavi. Location provider is Mozilla. Works fine.

Do you prefer ZANavi to OSMAnd~?

Out of curiosity, how did you manage to have Mozilla as a location provider?

I hope i'm wrong here, but as far as I can tell. You need either google services or unifiedNLP from microG to achieve that.

I say this, because I run LineageOS without Gapps and I could never make it work with Mozilla's location provider.

The lack of geolocation is the only thing bothering me to be honest.

Mozilla UnifiedNLP Backend (no GAAPS) installed via F-Droid.

[1] https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.microg.nlp.backend.ichna...

Which phone did you buy? Depending on the stock software, you could very well still be running all sorts of Google services in the background unless you reflashed it with a privacy-respecting ROM.

Last time I looked at it, maybe a couple of years ago, the parent's approach was not nearly sufficient if you don't want your phone communicating with Google. There was so much, including things baked into Android, that it would have been a full time job to identify and find solutions to everything. The only hope was another OS (including Android forks/ROMs), and none of those available at the time seemed sufficient secure - many didn't focus on security, didn't know what they were doing, or lacked resources to complete the job - or capabilities.

As one simple issue, I'm pretty sure Android uses Google's DNS and that is hard to change.

Sorry to be vague; I wish I had more details but don't have time to look them up right now. The basic message is: It's not sufficient, depending on your goals. to rely on settings in the GUI and to avoid Google applications.

I agree with the general feeling, but for the DNS issue specifically you can use iptables' DNAT if you're root. It is unlikely that Google went as far as bypassing iptables just to use their DNS.

Example usage:

    iptables -t nat -A OUTPUT -p tcp --dport 53 -j DNAT --to-destination 1.2.3.4
    iptables -t nat -A OUTPUT -p udp --dport 53 -j DNAT --to-destination 1.2.3.4

>I'm pretty sure Android uses Google's DNS and that is hard to change.

DNS66 from the fdroid store. Doesn't require root either.

> As one simple issue, I'm pretty sure Android uses Google's DNS and that is hard to change.

I'm pretty sure it runs the DNS you specify though your ISP might mangle the packets to their own DNS (Vodafone NL used to do this and also tunnel HTTP traffic into their transparent proxy; not sure if they still do).

However this is a non-issue if you're OK running a VPN server. I use WireGuard to use my home network's Pi-Hole which applies filtering. I also get insight on data traffic from the device via DPI feature on my router. Though the WireGuard Android package isn't complete yet the good part of the story is WireGuard doesn't take many resources. When I did this with OpenVPN in the past my phone would get so hot it hurted to touch it at some spots (granted though it was in summer but still not good for battery).

What's a good alternative of the play store?

This isn't really Android without Google - if you do this, you're still using Google's services and piping data through them. It's kind of like switching from Chrome to Firefox to open Gmail.

What Google services? MicroG replaces most (if not all) Google services.

> What Google services? MicroG replaces most (if not all) Google services.

RTM. From the article:

"If you read the purpose of microG you’ll understand it mainly serves as a proxy, something that still communicates with Google servers. The fact is, there is no way around that. The whole Android ecosystem is dependent of Google, either because of Google Play services or Play Store"

(Emphasis added that Google is still required with microG)

it's still better as microg allows you to tunnel all your communications through tor, and only sends a limited subset of data about your device to google. of course, that won't help you if you're using gmail, google maps, and google now. but you're only using non-google apps and want some google functionality (ie. push notification on signal), it's still better than using google play services.

Actually, the play store is one of the most replacement google components. You can not use it on even a standard non-rooted phone.

Avoiding their location services is harder but micro-g does actually support other location services backends.

Push notifications is the problem child. When people "send" you push notifications, they actually send them direct to google and rely on google to send them to you. Installing micro-g can disconnect google at your end, but not at the app vendors end. It's likely that they will do this in many cases even if your phone actually lacks the software to receive the push from google.

Wouldn't accessing Google services from an unofficial client violate the Google ToS? I'm also concerned about the Yalp store mentioned in the article which is introduced as a way to install Play Store apps without actually using Play store. Based on my reading, Google bans and locks out accounts without any remedial measures regularly.

I've been using yalp store through a secondary account only for that purpose, in case it does get banned. Hasn't happened yet, though (~6 months).

There is android without google. My device uses 0 google services.

Yes, but this isn't it.

interesting. what do you use to accomplish that?

Not him but there is Replicant. It's not really practical and realistic to use it considering many features are missing and just a few devices are supported.

https://replicant.us/

Don't install Google services or microg, and don't use apps which require any of that crap.

CopperheadOS

I also thought I was 'Google-free' by having 0 Google services, but then I discovered that my Android phone does this: https://www.reddit.com/r/LineageOS/comments/7m8tsq/mysteriou...

Firefox has a Google Container though so its a huge difference.

Samw for the Facebook container. Firefox containers are an awesome feature. I hope they make it default eventually.

The real Android without Google is CopperheadOS[1], which is also ahead of Google in terms of security (not behind, like LineageOS).

[1] https://copperhead.co/

Why is Lineage behind?

When a security patch for Android becomes available, it takes a lot of time until it gets ported to the LineageOS build targeting your device. If it ever happens at all.

Also it's worth remembering that LineageOS can't patch the driver blobs (which are a source of a large number of security issues). As a result, if you don't run it on a maintained platform (e.g. Google Pixel phones), you're still behind in security.

For Fairphone 2 you can manually update that quite easily.

For my device, I've found the lineageOS version to be better patched (and quicker) than the official releases.

You have to be on nightlies for this though.

LOS is a community effort. No regular company. No VC money. All volunteer.

It's not like regular companies distributing Android are known for delivering security patches in a timely manner...

How is Copperheads supports for not using or fully replacing Google Play Services? Microg has built Lineage images so those are fairly accessible. Any word on Copperhead doing anything like that?

This is CopperheadOS lead developer's take on microG:

https://www.reddit.com/r/CopperheadOS/comments/77i687/microg...

NB: LineageOS has similar sentiments and did not accept patches to enable microG.

Thus microG maintains its own fork of LineageOS; the microG team would need to fork Copperhead.

Unfortunatly, copperhead only supports a tiny number of devices: Pixel, Pixel XL, Nexus 5X and Nexus 6P (+hikey as preview)

And for the Pixel models it also costs $500 per device unless you want to run your own build server.

Do they not provide fastboot images for the Pixel devices? I know I could just flash those images on a Nexus 5X.

For Pixels they only provide images to paying customers. They were mad about people resellling flashed devices because it violated their noncommercial license and even disabled the update servers for Nexus devices entirely for a while.

I recently switch to a Sony Xperia X and I'm running AOSP built from source. If you just need a browser and want to make phone calls this is an OK solution.

https://developer.sony.com/develop/open-devices/

Unfortunately my phone isn't supported and I don't know how to build LineageOS for it, so I'm stuck with Google and also some other spyware that straight up sends contacts and SMS to servers in either China or US. Guess I should try and sue Alcatel under GDPR (but given they're owned by TCL, which is Chinese, I don't think it'll help).

Well, as long as it doesn't have a locked bootloader (I presume it doesn't), you should theoretically be able to get somewhere with it.

Rebuilding Android surely isn't that difficult (it's been on my todo list for some time, I've just never gotten around to it due to insufficient RAM).

The bootloader is unlocked, thought I don't understand Android enough to do anything useful with that and the Kernel sources. :/ Wish someone would help me. I can provide a build server with 16 GB of RAM and 1 Gb network as well as lots (200 GB) of PCIe SSD space.

Believe it or not 200GB of disk space may not be enough! At least 250GB is required according to: https://source.android.com/setup/build/requirements.

It can be done with much less actually.

Complete AOSP upto Oreo requires about 95GiB for just the sources + 40-50GiB for each version build.

But most of that repo history is not necessary if all you want to do is build one version. Just clone that one version to depth 1. Nougat weighed in at around 13-14GiB. Add the 40-50GiB for build, and about 70GiB is enough.

You can build Oreo with < 200GB easily

Sadly for most devices it is impossible as many OEMs do not release kernel and firmware. Yes it may be a open source violation but try telling this to any OEMs. Search in XDA and you will see one of the largest manufacturer Xiaomi does not release sources. If you have MediaTek SoC forget it.

It's Qualcomm, and I have the sources. I have decided to spend my weekend trying to build a rudimentary LineageOS build for my phone.

Mediatek sources are out there, along with full datasheets, desige guides, schematics, PCB layouts, etc. They're just not released "officially", but that doesn't mean they don't publicly exist.

If you are a EU resident, then it doesn’t matter who owns the company. Especially if they are selling in the EU, which means they have a clear way to target them.

Write them a GDPR message requesting what info they have on you!

I wrote a guide how to ungoogle a stock, odexed rom: https://petermolnar.net/odexed-android-6-marshmallow-with-mi...

LineageOS is no longer the CyanogenMod it once was. Where CM received regular updates and supported a plethora of devices, LOS has been dropping devices and doesn't do Oreo. My Galaxy S7 is no longer supported by LOS for absolutely no valid reason: https://lineageos.org/Changelog-18/

> Removed 14.1 devices > Samsung Galaxy S7 (herolte) and S7 Edge (hero2lte) due to licensing issues of the device trees

>for absolutely no valid reason

> due to licensing issues of the device trees

I believe you have knowledge their concerns are unfounded?

> doesn't do Oreo

Well I call bullshit:

https://www.lineageos.org/Changelog-16/

As for why the device was dropped, go ask the maintainer. They're probably volunteers and it might be that one of them just stopped having time to do that. I don't think they're actually paid for porting LOS.

Somehow this sort of thing never happened to a recent device like the S7 back in the days of CM, before it became Cyanogen Inc. Between the death of Cyanogen Inc. and the birth of LOS a crucial ingredient appears to have been lost, leaving the project as a whole less vital that it was before.

Overall interest in the ROM and android modding community has been decreasing. CM appeared right when android really started gaining traction and the modding community prospered. That was when phones were seen as the cool new tech with all these interesting features. Nowadays most people don't care what is in their phones as long as it runs the apps they want, takes decent pictures, and lasts for a decent part of the day. It also doesn't help that nowadays app developers have started intentionally crippling apps when a custom ROM is detected.

Because of this most people don't contribute to android ROM projects anymore. For a lot of people it just isn't worth the effort those that do care tend to keep up with new tech and buy the latest and greatest tech so they aren't maintaining old devices as much anymore unless they were major hits or a personal preference of the maintainer.

As for why a lot of features have disappeared, through the whole process of surviving the Cyanogen Inc. issues, it took everything the community had to keep basic android supported let alone all the extra features considering how many devices they support. Now that Treble has been deployed, this shouldn't be so much of an issue but maintaining so many old devices that have long been deprecated isn't easy.

Also, as for why the S7 is no longer maintained, apparently there was some bs issue with the software license on the S7 binaries.

The secret ingredient is cash.

neither of them do updates for the same reason. Yeah, you might get a few updates for a few phones, but that is because the OEM did the work too.

Every off-brand android distro does the same thing: they get the kernel+drivers from the OEM image, and repackage the rest (the rest being AOSP).

besides the android libraries, nothing is visible. It is all a binary blob picked from the OEM image. So if the android version X is release by OEM, the off-brand android distros will pick up version X for that phone by just building AOSP on top of that kernel+drivers. When a new version for android comes up and it depends on a newer kernel version, that phone won't be updated no matter what! ...exception is if the phone's kernel+drivers are shared with another model that did received the update, but you guess how rare that is.

bottom line, no matter how may hours an off-brand android distro use, it will NEVER support anything newer than what is supported by the OEM.

In some cases, even if they claim they are releasing android security patch X for your phone, if that patch bundle included kernel fixes, you can be guaranteed that they will not be included.

This all true an a pre-Treble world, we are already starting the post-Treble world now (I'm booted to a Treble GSI).

I don't even run microg. Here WeGo is great for maps. Firefox is great as a browser, and has nice things like playing youtube in background (after adding an extension) or ublock. Slack works (without notifications), Spotify, Netflix, Authy, Signal... Many things have PWAs that work because they are platform-independent. For installing things there's F-Droid or APKUpdater. You could even use Facebook Messenger without Google and still get notifications. My battery is great and Android

OSMand for maps is even better than google maps, in terms of map correctness and navigation options.

I just installed OSMand to try it out, and it didn't have the street I live on. It also didn't have my place of work on it, although it did have that street at least.

Seems worse than Google maps to me.

Did you also download the map for your area?

I downloaded the maps for my state. Are there local maps that I would need to download as well?

Open Street Maps have much more users (and thus better ground coverage) in Europe, e.g. Germany. I think that's why the experience may be diametrically different for different people.

"De-Googling my phone" by Martin Pitt was also a pretty interesting related read: https://piware.de/post/2018-05-01-android-degoogle/

it is still impossible. the step #1 there, "install lineageOS" translates to "install a bunch of binaries blobs that include kernel drivers and firmwares that were signed by the OEM and google", so no, you are still not free from google code there.

Is Replikant still a thing?

It is pretty interesting that people outside China are trying hard to get rid of Google on Android. Whereas people buying phones in China are getting Android without Google by default and trying hard to install Google play services (those who travel or live oversea).

Not that interesting TBH. In Germany people are trying to get on Facebook/Instagram/LinkedIn right now, when people in the US are trying to escape them. It's simply a new thing marketed there.

Germany doesn't have access to FB/Instagram/LinkedIn?

Bummer that they don't support Nokia (yet). I have a first-gen 6, it's a fine phone, but I've been thinking that my next phone will be an iPhone because I'm tired of Google and their invasive tactics. I don't mind advertising and understand the business model that uses it, but I am wholly opposed to targeted advertising that tracks my browsing habits and which sites I visit.

In summary, look at https://download.lineageos.org/ before buying if you want support from LOS. Sadly many buy the bling phone or cheap from far-east that is riddled with bloatware/spyware.

As an Android developer I'm biased, but it's important to remember that there literally would be no Android if it weren't for Google. Custom ROMs have lagged behind Google factory images in every way for years now, and they aren't anywhere near as reliable as a customized AOSP image. On a separate note, there's no substitute for Google Maps, and there never will be.

> As an Android developer I'm biased, but it's important to remember that there literally would be no Android if it weren't for Google.

This is an appeal to pity. [1]

As someone who knew Android before it was bought by Google I'd like to disagree on that one:

"In July 2005, Google acquired Android Inc. for at least $50 million." [2] Yes, Andy Rubin had money issues, but OTOH it was seen as a competitor already at that point. Some details with sources on that in [2] as well.

Furthermore, if Android did not became popular perhaps Maemo did or Symbian remained and Nokia didn't die. Who knows.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_pity

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)

It's an accurate statement. Without Google the Android you're referring to would be buried alongside your beloved Maemo and Symbian right next to Tizen, Ubuntu Touch, Windows Mobile, Blackberry, Firefox Mobile, Amazon Fire and every other non-iOS mobile OS. No one else could have made Android into what it is today because no one else could have leveraged all of Google's technologies. On a personal note, as a Nokia fan and someone who started modding with Nokia, I find your appeal to pity extremely pathetic.

There's tons of substitutes for Google Maps:

https://f-droid.org/app/net.osmand.plus

https://f-droid.org/app/com.github.axet.maps

https://f-droid.org/app/com.junjunguo.pocketmaps

https://f-droid.org/app/com.zoffcc.applications.zanavi

Either specify why you think Google Maps is so irreplacable or don't make such a blanket statement.

Those are all inferior substitutes. None of them can reroute you on the fly to avoid a major delay, and none of them provide real-time traffic updates on par with the updates provided by Google Maps. Being extremely popular gives it a huge advantage that none of the other map apps enjoy. There will never be a substitute because there is no logical incentive for anyone to use the inferior map apps, and without a massive increase in users they'll perpetually remain less accurate. How many people are willing to risk sitting in traffic unnecessarily to prove some point about not relying on Google technology?

I'm considering the Essential Phone for my next phone and just putting Lineage OS or something on it. Not sure of another phone that I can get for that price range (under $500) that is unlocked and not bloatware filled. Definitely going to be reading a number of articles like these. Though I might try not installing the Google* apps on it period.

Essential died, I'd look at Android One devices like the Nokia 6 or Xiaomi Mi A1.

They're not dead yet. Sure, they stopped working on their next phone and are searching for a buyer, but they also just pushed out a new Android P beta for the PH-1.

The regular security patches on Mi A1 is such a joy to see, especially for a phone in that price range.

They offer an official bootloader unlock too.

Android One is the future of Android.

Nokia brand smartphones are unlocked, come with latest vanilla Android without bloatware, and they get regular fast updates (updates guaranteed for at least 2 years).

I have Nokia 3 and it's perfectly OK. No thrill, just works and stays updated. Nokia 6 is $230 in the US.

Oh I am totally going to check that out. I appreciate that tip. Definitely getting one for half the cost of Essential. I also considered the Moto phones but not all of them have USB C charging.

Edit: Sadly it will not work with Sprint so I can't get it.

I think the OP meant SIM unlocked. Sadly Nokia android phones bootloader locked. Nokia's CTO statement: they would not be offering an official bootloader unlock method “due to security.” The only OEM consistently provides open code and unlocking easily is Motorola - Still some Google's DNA.

https://www.xda-developers.com/no-official-bootloader-unlock...

But at least not shoved with uninstallable and pre-installed apps. Yes I know I can "disable" some apps but I find it ridiculous that phones come with Facebook, Instagram etc preinstalled. Just no thanks.

Moto G6 and moto X have USB C

No. Bootloader unlocking not possible. From the Chief Product Officer Nokia -> https://twitter.com/sarvikas/status/910421837661790208

SIM unlock is carrier dependent if you are from the US.

What about OnePlus devices? Absolutely no bloatware, very easy unlocking and ususally around $500.

If you strip away all the hype and marketing, they offer pretty solid phones.

Backdoored

I have the Essential Phone and love it.

Here are some notes on building and installing Lineage OS on the Essential PH-1:

https://headthirst.com/building-and-installing-lineageos.htm...

And some notes about setting up a phone without Google Play Services:

https://headthirst.com/life-without-google-apps.html

I have made a habit to de-americanize my products and went with a Xiaomi phone (the Mi Mix 2) and installed LOS on it.

The only thing I am really missing is Google Maps and its precise, actual traffic augmented, predictions.

I've tried Waze, Bing and OSM, but there is always something missing.

Android is just the base. Smart-phones run pretty much custom firmware. You could get a "flagship" smarthone a couple of years old, basically for free, and the hardware would still be very good, but good luck upgrading to latest Android version.

When I last did something like this, I reset to the original OS because of only one other thing I encountered - proprietary software like for e.g. Samsung S-Pen would not work. Unless I missed something?

mostly no Gapps use open apps like f-droid as a source which has a lot of rules and fairly transparent. there are some shady app markets out there though.

Xiaomi?

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