Thomas Bernhard, Karl Kraus, and Other Vienna-Hating Viennese | Hacker News Reader

Thomas Bernhard, Karl Kraus, and Other Vienna-Hating Viennese

theparisreview.org

45 pointspepys15 comments

It never stops to amaze me how many of the creative and destructive forces of the 20th century originated in Vienna. The writer of this piece concentrates on literature, but one could as easily concentrate on music, art, politics, philosophy, math or natural science. What’s more, there were common themes running through the developments in all these fields, which makes studying this place and time a uniquely rich intellectual experience.

Of particular interest to the HN crowd may be a recent book by Karl Sigmund, Exact Thinking In Demented Times, which documents the rise and decline of the Viennese Circle, a group of physicists, mathematicians and philosophers who changed the course of maths and science. Mach, Boltzmann, Einstein, Russell, Gödel, Wittgenstein, Neurath, Carnap, Von Neumann, Schlick, etc. etc. The interconnections will dazzle you and the place that holds the whole web together is Vienna.

I disagree with the thought that the Vienna circle had anything to do with the course of math and science. They were mostly philosophers, with fewer scientists if you look closely, and their contribution was to philosophy, not science.

Also: they had no direct link with Einstein's work (he conducted his research decades before they even existed), he only attended some of their meetings. I'm also pretty sure Von Neumann had nothing to do with them, same for Boltzmann (who was dead).

I agree that the impact on philosophy was probably far greater than on science and math, but the fact is that several prominent mathematicians (most notably Gödel) were part of the group. One can of course argue whether e.g. Gödels achievements had anything to do with his being a member.

As to your second remark, I did not mean to imply that the people listed were all members. They were not. But they did have affiliations with members of the group (personal and professional) and they are all discussed in the book.

I was born in Vienna, lived there for 30 years.

The article summarizes a bunch of complex topics, but the summary is - end of an empire. Vienna today is the second largest German-speaking city, a nearly 2mil entity in an 8mil country. Everything is oversized for its new host, it is meant to run an empire, but yet only has a tiny sliver.

This sense of loss, mourning, permeates. A bit like the character of Norma Desmond in Sunset Boulevard, caught in the past, a grande dame, crazy yet irrestible. Billy Wilder grew up in Vienna of course.

There was also a generational dynamic: The 19th century saw the rise of a founder generation, who pretty much defined bourgeoisie in Austria. This also gave rise to a variety of literary, artistic minded and intellectual salons, which provided in turn a chance for artists, literates, etc to shine. The next generation, the founders' offsprings growing up in this kind of environment, was naturally oriented towards these ideals, but, at the same time, with a need to revolt against this bourgeois environment of the salons of their mothers. If not artists and/or intellectuals in their own right, they provided for a solid landscape of eager and potent patrons. (Wittgenstein, who donated his share of the heritage of a major steal empire to a magazine, the Brenner, to be forwarded to artists of the choice of the editor, may serve as an example.) However, there was also a need to revolt against the last revolt, which had become the bourgeoisie's darling since. E.g., the Secession was revolting against a prior revolt, the Künstlerhaus. "Jung Wien" (young Vienna), a literary movement populated by the first generation of offsprings of the bourgeois salons, became soon the target of the next cohort of intellectuals like Karl Kraus, and so on. A dynamic, always enforced by – and in turn reinforcing – the genuine Viennese angst of anybody gaining recognition too easily.

We spent a couple weeks touring the old empire last year. My wife and I were really stunned at how much we really enjoyed Vienna, where we stayed a good week. We stayed a ways out from the city at an AirBnB and just sort of enjoyed "living" there. We found it beautiful, safe, pleasant people. The remains of the old empire are of course stunning, but the rest of the city itself was wonderful. Easily one of our favorite cities in Europe.

We also found it interesting how entirely different it is, despite the similar language, from Germany -- which we've been to almost half a dozen times and have never really quite taken to (no offense meant to any Germans).

Visited Vienna for the first time in 2016 and was equally stunned!

To be fair, Thomas Bernhard hated every city with a passion. I have beside me the book „Städtebeschimpfungen“ (insultations of cities), which is just him raging on and on about various cities and why they and their inhabitants are unbearable cesspools of dimwitted lowlives. Its very creative.

Bernhard hated not just Vienna, but Austria in general, and they mostly hated him back... until he died, when they started hailing him a genius and national treasure.

Yes. Rumor has it Austria has an established post for Official Austria Hater, to be occupied at all times by a prominent literary figure.

Tough article.

Sounds like in the early 1900s, Vienna faced the rise of fascism and the fall of the "Liberal" order. The bourgeouise, mostly liberals, began to use art discourse as a means of secretly discussing their discontent with the political situation.

Artists like Thomas Bernhard, Karl Kraus, and other Vienna-hating Viennese thus criticized, through their art, the artistic circles of contemporary Vienna.

Living in Vienna, the title had me chuckle - a common stereotype of the Viennese is beeing generally discontent and complaining about just everything, specially the state of things in Vienna and quite much all the other people living there.

So "... and other Vienna-hating Viennese" instantly sounds pretty satirical, and just the type of unexcited cynism that would qualify as "Viennese humour" as well.

One thing we Viennese are known for (including among ourselves) is that we're always grouching ("raunzen"). No matter how good the situation, we always find a reason to complain. The artists' dislike for Vienna is somewhat in line with this view. It's a stereotype however, and I think it's not a suprise that Vienna is frequently nominated as the most liveable city in the world.

I went through a huge Thomas Bernhard phase about a decade ago that pretty much killed fiction for me. Nothing could really compare after it, and so that's when my non-fiction reading path began.

Glad to see Bernhard on HN. Conditioning for the soul requires an occasional tussling with "difficult" literatures: anti-humanism, nihilism, authoritarianism, amorality, egoism and the absurd.

Charles Bukowski was still influential amongst creative writers when I was in college. Houellebecq and Karl Ove Knausgard continue the tradition today. And of course the classics: Huysmans A rebours, Camus Myth of Sisyphus, Dostoyevskys Idiot, Tolstoys Ressurection.

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