Do we really need yet another language for the web?
And this is true for many more languages (Flow, PureScript, LiveScript, IcedCoffeeScript, ...) which don't innovate on many aspects but just offer a slightly different - sometimes improved - syntax. I do recognize that many languages add value, but that must be offset to the cost of using these languages. Costs which are often quite high: Googleability, StackOverflowability, documentation, tooling, develop mindshare, library support, stability - these things don't come cheap and take years to mature.
Furthermore, these "innovate slightly" languages in the webspace take away resources from improving the current state of the art in mainstream (EcmaScript, TypeScript, Dart, C#, Java, ...). For instance, instead of improving some JS tool now resources go into e.g. writing a language server for aforementioned language.
A good example is Elm which does try to innovate on core concepts (builtin reactivity). That's a conceptual feature which can bring the state of the art of programming language design further.
Last, I do not mean that we should not write any more new languages; but we should stop trying to get large-audience adoption for "innovate-slightly" languages. It's a waste of braincycles and actually hurts the ecosystem.
"A strongly-typed functional programming language that compiles to JavaScript -- Build real-world applications using functional techniques and expressive types, such as: Algebraic data types and pattern matching; Row polymorphism and extensible records; Higher kinded types; Type classes with functional dependencies; Higher-rank polymorphism" http://www.purescript.org
For example, why do you consider TypeScript to be a "state of the art in mainstream" worth improving, and Flow to be just an "innovate-slightly" language? Those two projects are very close in nature. And if the key difference is adoption, then why is Dart along with EcmaScript and TypeScript?
Idk whose "side" I'm on here, but I didn't want to lose an opportunity to blurt out my love.
It's a shame dart is being managed by google. I wish they had been more hands off with the dart team, as they are deviating from server-side go so people can write mobile apps in dart. Even though they'll look almost exactly like C# apps but with better types...
Anyways yeah. Dart. Cool types. Good vm. Gilad is a cool guy.
(I have been considering Dart for a while, but haven't taken the time to look into it because it doesn't seem like it provides additional benefits compared to other languages (apart from the Flutter aspect).)
Anyways, you could check for certain major structural errors in unchecked mode and compile very fast, and then when it's time to start propping up a release, you can turn on checked mode and catch more intricate errors.
Gilad has been working on gradual/optional type systems for years. (they are technically two different ideas but the difference is rather academic and of little use to most programmers)
Anyways, dart has strong generics, it can do contravariance easily which makes refactoring code without breaking existing call sites, the dart lang spec has a great section on this.
In addition to all this, dart has really good reflection support through mirrors, a concept I'm not very familiar with, but it makes possible a tool called observatory, which is awesome. You can have source maps for dart2js, you can see which individual classes or methods or even lines of code are being utilized, you can get a lot visualizations about your performance profile, you can look at dart from the inside of dart. It's a lot like smalltalk, but way more practical.
Sort of like how rails took a perfectly good language and destroyed it, flutter seems to have built a foundation for taking dart and exploiting it.
Now they say its client-oriented" which I assume is googlese for "if you're not using dart for flutter, fuck off."
There was also a dart llvm effort at one point, but that became too useful and was abandoned.
If you are looking for a really good functional language for web, consider F# if you have dotnet experience, or bucklescript if you have ocaml support, scalajs if you have jvm experience and also love shitty tooling, and finally, purescript if you like haskell.
HN likes Elm a lot, but it's a little too opinionated for me, and although I like the BDFL approach to FOSS, it doesn't mean that you should be the ONLY developer in the core. That makes me exceptionally nervous about adoption, especially for professional work.
YouTube search for "gilad is right" for some talks that he's given. There's one where he dives in depth to the type system and how checking works.
Sorry for no links, literally using 2G right now, travelling.
Yeah, I am unhappy that they are focusing Dart more on the client side (another reason, I didn't look too closely at it) -- focus like that is probably good for language adoption in some niche, but it would be nice to have a good strongly typed language that also has good support, good tooling and extensive libraries for use both on the client side and the server side (and for mobile app development!) so you have only one language to deal with everywhere. Dart is one of the few languages that from the outside seems closest to that ideal.
I'm kind of at the age where I'm just too far removed to try and work on learning a whole new field. If I could go back, I think I'd choose type theory and compilers and spent longer in college. Instead I learned to reverse software and built my career up piecemeal, but there is so much fascinating material surrounding compilers and the intricacies of how different type systems behave and allow modeling. I see how people get their whole career sucked up into that space.
F# still has a chance if dotnet can step their game up just a few more notches. They're getting better lately.
Well.
What is Gilad up to now, I wonder?
For such a talented researcher, that's gotta be demotivating for him. Bless him.
I guess dart is basically ceylon now but with contravariance? Gradual typing gave it such a unique space.
Source: http://bracha.org/cv.pdf
I'm glad to see him in a position where he will be able to be more explorative though, that's gotta be a relief for him. I'm sure once flutter started picking up more engineers he probably knew then what the outcome would be and how his directional influence would start to be limited.
Flow is a nice comparison as it is also backed by a large company. They don't offer a developed IDE in tandem, development pace is a lot lower and language features are not that many compared to TypeScript. The "innovation factor" is a lot lower - of the level I think it's not worth pouring resources into it.
Sometimes these projects wither and die. Sometimes they find niches where they’re particularly useful. Sometimes they hang around with a core of dedicated users. Sometimes the ideas they introduce go on to influence other languages. Those are all beneficial.
I’m surprised to see this same complaint levelled so often.