Ask HN: Motivation and employement

My comment to people in similar situations, is to always remember that if you have that much savings, you are closer to retirement than you realize. If you can live off of a 4% drawdown, then you have very little risk long term of ever touching your principle in a very conservative index fund investment (stock markets historically in the US average 4% above inflation, and I suspect that's true globally). I'm not sure what the russian equivalent to Vanguard is, but I'd he surprised if you didn't have access to similar low cost investment.

Sometimes all it takes is another couple years of slogging away at a job you hate to get you to a critical mass where investment income matches your yearly expenses. At that point all risk of quiting is basically gone, and you can pursue whatever you want.

Also keep in mind that seven years is a pretty common number in business for a good product to become successful. You can have 100% growth year over year for 5 years and still only have 32 customers. So it may make sense to hold off until you have slightly more runway than 5-6 years savings.

But doing the math, and putting dates on calendars can do wonders for how you feel about going into work.

Also, you sound like you're in a really good spot no matter what you decide. Good luck!

Thanks!

I do not hate my job, I just feel that I'm not using my full potential there. So, 'slogging away' is an strategy that I abide rigorously so far, but when should I stop? =)

Yep, I am using equivalents of Vanguard, but I do not really look for FIRE as a solution. There are also risk even in 'risk-free' investments.

Yeah, I wish I could be more help. I'm not in a position to quit my day job, even though I'm highly under utilized myself. I don't have your runway, but if I did, I'd be very tempted to take 9-12 months off to work on some projects that would make me either more valuable, or more competitive for a more interesting position. Personally, much of what I'm interested in working on next, I'm lacking in credibility that I can do the job, and just having a related project goes a long way in most fields.

Since you mentioned wanting to work on a product though, I suspect one more year runway will decrease your chance of failure significantly (like maybe in half). But I'm so risk averse you probably should never listen to my risk assessments...

I do like a lot of the comments suggesting working on the next thing for a while before quiting your high paying job (maybe even try to take a month off after your next project). I know your free time is at a premium, but there are a lot of things that just take calendar time when starting a business. Things like waiting for government papers, or responses from prospective customers. It's nice to be earning money while some of that is happening.

This post confuses me.

It reads as if one could work a SWE job for 10 years, and retire on an index fund. Yet, that cannot possibly be true?

Cost of living is relative, but I can't imagine mine is very high. No kids. Own my car. $700/mo rent.

Yet, 10 years is not even close to enough time to bank enough money to retire. What am I doing wrong?

This is true -- it's 100% about your savings rate: how much money are you saving (net) each year? And out of that, how much are you investing?

This article does an excellent job of explaining it better than I ever could: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-si...

In summary, however, assuming you are a W2 employee, here are some immediate steps to take:

- Pay off all debts > 4% interest - Reduce spending / consumption - Max out your 401k - Max out your IRA each year - Invest the rest into low-cost index funds, I personally do VTIAX and VTSAX (international stocks and US stocks)

Once your investments reach 25x your yearly expenses you are good to go =)

There are probably many factors you have to adjust along the way to achieve it -- possible, but not without effort.

If you live in a place with $700/mo rent, I imagine you probably also live in an area that doesn't pay the kind of salaries San Francisco tech pays.

So you might want to work in SF. But let's say you work in SF and get bay area SWE salaries; if you were to want to "retire" in SF and continue to live with $3-4k rent, that might be a hard point to reach after 10 years.

If you work in SF/Bay and get bay area SWE salaries (or better yet, FAANG salaries) for 10 years, live modestly for most of it and not overspend, you can then probably afford to retire with $700/mo rent (or even buy a house with cash in an area that costs $200k~ a house) after 10 years by moving away from the bay to other states.

The difference in salary and cost of living between different areas is often larger than you can imagine; and it's up to you to figure out how to adjust the knobs to make it work best to your advantage.

Here is a question. Do you have a good sense of how you would use your time after you quit? Obviously you would have more time for your family and hobbies, but beyond that, a lot of the challenge of working for yourself is in making sure you are still pursuing a plausible career path and not taking a wrong turn that will stress you out and has no reward.

I recently approached this question by writing down what I know about myself and my general interests and strengths and weaknesses. I limited myself to finding the nine most important of these(an arbitrary number but small enough that I could keep all of them in my head) and reworked it over a few days until they described me well and were no longer contradicting each other.

I figured out that I wanted to position myself towards something more like teaching than, e.g. "deep" R&D, sales, customer support. So now I am working on making video essays for a Youtube channel - something I hadn't considered until I really worked through what I did and did not want - and am having a great time with it. And if the channel and associated products don't work out(like a lot of YT channels, the actual channel and video content can be leveraged into a marketing funnel), it's still a pretty solid career move in terms of getting my name out there.

Can you post your youtube channel.

Living very frugally, and driving an old car, wouldn't bother me but living in a Soviet-style flat would seriously depress me. Maybe it's having an effect on your own psychology? Human beings are by nature outdoor animals and living in a huge block apartment is about as far from the natural outdoors as you can get.

You could try renting a proper home on Airbnb for a month and see how you feel after a few weeks of having a nicer environment.

This is the main reason most Americans want to own a home with a backyard. It allows you to relax and BBQ in the "outdoors" any time you want. Sitting around a fire pit is soothing in a primal way. I think most people find that it improves their psychology immensely.

Oh, well =). I enjoy living in city, it is very convenient. I like city infrastructure (especially public transport, here it is awesome).

And here we have a "real winter" with snow for 4-5 months a year, so it's a additional challenge to clean out of snow your backyard.

> relax and BBQ in the "outdoors" any time you want

In Poland (which has similar climate to Moscow), it's not "any time you want", but more like May-September. For me, it's one of main reasons for not owning a house - it's a major hassle throught the year, but you reap the benefits for only around 5 months in this climate.

Say thanks to zoning... In many post soviet (i.e. developing or non-developing) there is literally "wild west" - you can spend all of your life savings and build/buy a nice house with a backyard, but some other "investor" might build 30-store building right next to you.

I would suggest that you switch jobs or move to more interesting project at your current job. Starting a business sounds very attractive but it is totally different from a programming job. I personally enjoy programming and would hate to deal with customers/marketing/sales/VCs/employees. Starting a business is just too many variables and never ending cycle of worry.

There are lot of new exciting technologies(AI/VR/Crypto) which are high in demand and fun to work in.

Thanks for your reply! This is a good advice, but I already tried it. For me it does not solved the problem, only gave me a little more motivation to dig into new tech. I'm not afraid of dealing with 'business' side of business, cause during my career I was engineering manager for couple of years and solution architect (tech sales guy) earlier.

I also enjoy programming, but for me it is just a tool.

I'm going to say something others would generally shy away from:

If you have that much in savings, then instead of building a project, hire someone to build it for you. It will give you valuable management and project management skills, and you can do it easily while working a day-to-day job.

Build it part time, if it grows then you can leave. Most people that leave without a plan exhaust their savings and end up in a worst position.

I second that. Married with kids? Don't jump off the train right away. Start your own project for fun on the side. It as to be fairly contained and not to hard to put in place because you want to minimize the time spent at your current 9-5 job. Make it grow, look at the potential, get early feedback or eventually generate a tiny income out of it (optional). Look at your savings, make a plan with a 1 year run, or 2 years if you can. Quit in good terms, tell people you're going to pursue your dream and would love to come back in the future.

Quitting a job to pursue your dream is great, but that dream needs a clear definition.

How do you make a project that makes money without your employer finding out and firing you?

Depends on your employer, your contract, your domain, location, etc. If you signed a non compete agreement when you join your employer then you need to make sure your own business isn't related to the same domain, etc. Distribute your product for free if it is a problem, then when it’s time to quit your job, introduce a non-free version of your product.

In Russia it is totally legal, however employer wouldn't be happy, but who cares.

I was thinking for your employer. If you piss them off then it's the same situation as if you have quit.

Just do not have enough time and focus (that's more important) for that. Usually I devote almost all out-of-office time to family, do not want to spend all weekends hacking =). Even if I can do it part time, it's will be only 10 hours of focus per week - it is too little.

10 hours was enough for plenty of fish to sell for 500M eventually 100% owner and single dev led for many years.

Plenty of fish owner started in the US not some third world country.

It's always hard to give advice to someone - and even harder giving advice to someone you don't even know. That said, I think if you came here is because, deep down, you already know the answer and you're just looking for "validation" to do it. ;)

If you're feeling you'd be happier doing something else (and have the financial means to support yourself), just do it. Of course, it's harder when you also have a family to support but just have an honest talk to them and tell them how you're feeling. They'll probably support your decision.

It's a cliché but it's so true: life's too short to waste time doing something when our mind tells us we should be doing something else. That doesn't have to be something definitive either. Just try out something for a year or two and, if things don't work out, you can always find a new job (or maybe even go back to yours). ;)

I think many people here would like as fortunate as you are to have enough savings to quit their jobs and do something they're truly passionate about. You've worked hard to reach this point. Enjoy it! :)

It takes about 1-2 years to get decent profit flowing in a startup, so if you can live 5-6 years, then quit and try for 2.

You will grow so much during this time that if you had to go back into employment, you could command a much higher salary.

But this only applies if you are a self-starter. Once I stopped working a full-time job (i.e. employment) and started my startup, I actually do a lot more hours. I dont notice it, but I do. It's not for everybody.

Do you quit after you found product-market fit? Or earlier?

Before - I had 1 year of runway, and I was sure I could get revenue positive in a year. I was wrong. After a year I had to go back into consulting for 6 months, that 6 months consulting gave me another year runway, and then that was enough to get everything off the ground.

Have been in the same position, my advice is to not quit (I did and I thought I could have had it easier)! You are in a great position now to make the next step.

Is taking a sabbatical an option?

Do you have energy left after work to try something on the side?

Find other companies. In the another thread I recommended the book "Why Employees Are Always A Bad Idea". There are different companies out there (building one myself).

Can you make your current employer a customer? Can you make a product with what you do for them? Do you know someone you could work with? It's better to work with someone.

Taking that risk seems to be not a big deal in your case because you own your home. I think it's very important to have good support (at least moral) from the family (wife or parents).

Read "When to Jump" it's been a quite fascinating read that has encouraged me to be courageous when faced with the task of jumping. (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072V1BWFK/ref=dp-kindle-redirect)

Starting a business is not easy in Russia. Problem with starting a big business is corrupt government getting interested in your business and oligarch sweeping off your biz. Move to SF and start your business there.

LOL, it is really easy, we have 6% tax here if you relatively small (below $1.5M USD yearly revenue).

So, it's not an issue.

Tax rate means nothing if it's difficult to expand your business.

"This year, Russia is ranked 40th in the World Bank Group Global Doing Business report, which assesses the ease of doing business across 190 measured economies."

Hiring developers in St Petersburg is no longer easy as developers have come to expect salary like you are getting.

You don't have to jump the ship right away. You can find time and transition.