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https://np.reddit.com/r/AskLEO/comments/2dgwkp/what_makes_am...

Wow, that was very informative and interesting. Definitely worth a read. Thanks!

His response reminds me of Officer Ken Lam, the Toronto Police officer who opted not to shoot the van suspect despite the fact that he was within a few meters of the suspect. In America, it's highly likely the officer would've used his gun.

Not to mention that the suspect really appeared to be attempting to provoke the officer into shooting him by brandishing something dark and acting like it was a firearm (was a cell phone I believe). The officer's response was very restrained which I think is a good thing.

More about Ken Lam: https://globalnews.ca/video/4168807/const-ken-lam-toronto-po...

1st generation Canadian who retired from being an engineer of 14 years because he wanted to do more for his community directly.

I know this is just one example but I think this contrasts just so strongly from all the police officers who join up for very different reasons.

He reminds me of the officer in this story who quit the CIA to become a beat cop because he believed it allowed him to make a far greater difference: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/05/07/the-spy-who-ca... (This is a must read, by the way)

How do we get more officers like these?

Raise better children, and pay living wages, basically.

In addition: be more selective in choosing who gets to be a police officer, hold them accountable for their actions, and hold them to high standards.

I get the feeling that a major deterrent for folks who genuinely want to be a police officer to help their community is that there are many in the organization who view their role as an extension of the US military.

There's such a low threshold for the police's justified use of deadly force in the US, that Ken Lam's restraint was almost unbelievable for this 'merican.[0]

[0]https://twitter.com/boyermichel/status/988492132636913665?la...

I can't find the recent stats but years ago I read that my tri-city regional police have like 6 patrol cars at night. I'm not surprised. I've driven the town out of boredom a number of times well past midnight. Its boring. There's absolutely nothing going on aside from the downtown strip of bars and clubs.

Wow what a great post. I’ve always had a hunch about the things the German police officer said but never had any (even anecdotal) evidence to confirm or dismiss them. Thank you!

It can be hard to reason about the culpability of the people involved in this thing, but I think your comment brings up an interesting point aside from culpability when you compare USA police to other countries that would "ask if everything is OK".

The police in the USA sent what was in effect an execution squad to the house of the victim. What kind of situation is that where there are execution squads ready to 'deploy' to anyone's home address?

> What kind of situation is that where there are execution squads ready to 'deploy' to anyone's home address?

USSR under Stalin/Lenin

Italy under Mussolini

Germany under Hitler

Chile under Pinochet

All it takes is one phone call...

The Philippines, Brazil, a few other places from time to time.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/02/philippines-pr...

One thing you also have to keep in mind though, to compare apples to apples, is relative crime rates. The homicide rate in Wichita is about 8/100k [1]. This [2] is a list of nations by homicide rate. Places with a homicide rate similar to Wichita include Ethiopia, Pakistan, Iraq and Qatar. Dorothy would not be happy! And it's presumably not those sort of places you reference when talking about expecting a couple of Sheriff Andy's to come up to the door asking if everything's okay before headed back to the station to finish up their game of checkers.

You'll find a pattern in incidents of 'extreme police behavior' is that it tends to be in locations with very high crime rates. There are definitely some exceptions, but again - they are exceptions. And I imagine the causal connection is here. The man who tends sheep is probably going to behave a bit differently on average than the man who tends lions.

It's probably a bit disingenuous to compare countries to cities, but a big part of the problem is that a lot of us live in bubbles and even when living in areas with high crime rates, we tend to be completely insulated from it all. Police are not. I grew up poor in the inner city and police tape stretched around an area was a not infrequent sight. And I think it gives me a different perspective than most. Just living in those conditions can make you feel uncomfortable at times. And police are actively walking into the worst of it day in, day out. That's not the sort of thing you're going to take casually.

[1] - http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Wichita-Kansas.html

[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...

There's a wide spectrum of behaviours in between "Sheriff Andy's to come up to the door" and "immediately shoot the first person to open the door". Police officers are (should be) professionals. You should expect better.

This doesn't strike me as a uniquely American thing. When I visited Paris, I saw lots of pairs of soldiers or police patrolling streets and subway stations carrying FAMAS rifles. You don't even see that in the US (most foot patrols only carry pistols, most officers in cars leave their carbines in the vehicle unless they need it).

I think this is typically in relation to threats of terrorist attacks - it's not for ordinary criminals.

Given they are actually not allowed to use their gun when a large terrorist attack is going on right in front of them [0], it could be argued their role is mostly public relations.

[0] page 53 of this official report: http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/14/pdf/rap-enq/r3922-t1.pd... (gist: neither the head of police nor the army allowed the soldiers to open fire, arguably for good reasons, but then what's the point?)

Sorry, little digression here: It was probably in response to the Terror attacks, a stuff called "operation sentinelle"[0]. They still patrol near strategic points now and then, but you see them less often now.

And while military training is not police training, there was some controversy and some generals said it was a huge mistake, as the money spend on this operation (~1M$) would have shown better effect if spent on intelligence. Also, to afford the men, military had to cut monthly training. A friend of mine said that physical exercise/conditionment was divided by 2, while tactical and shooting by 4, but he really hated this operation so take it with a grain of salt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op%C3%A9ration_Sentinelle

I was backpacking around Europe in 1999 and I saw people in military uniforms with military style weapons patrolling the metro stations in Paris. It made me uneasy.

But unlike certain other countries they usually don't use them.

I grew up with a real combat rifle in the house, not a bump-stocked semi AR that looks scary. Complete with ammo. Same in a number of other houses in the neighborhood.

Never had reason to worry.

But I guess it might seem scary to Americans.

What was the time you visited Paris? I visited London last year and I have seen a quite some police carry MP5 around Big Ben and area (I was also in between attacks in there). On the other hand in Amsterdam where I live I have only seen police with machine guns after attacks in Paris.

From what I have seen UK police usually carry no guns like outside London. In the Netherlands usually pistols. In Poland where I am from I have not seen Policeman with machine gun only military and special occasions.

Shooting by the Police happen but it is like one in 3 maybe 5 years. Where in states it seems from my point of view every month at least (never been in states so it might be skewed).

I saw multiple US police officers with M4s [1] at the Warriors game this week. I feel like its becoming increasingly common at public events here.

[1]: I think they were m4s but they could be another similar looking rifle, I'm no expert.

Colt makes a civilian/law enforcement M4, the LE6920. It probably was an M4.

I saw plenty of police in south Florida (Ft Lauderdale/Holywood area) walking around with M4-style rifles and what looked like flak jackets five years ago. I never bothered to be around them long enough to figure out what they were doing but their grouping (only a few officers at a time) and frequency seems to suggest it is a common occurrence here.

The individuals walking around with those weapons in France do not have the same intentions as the US counter parts. In the US those armed like this will size up every person walking by them, in France they are there patrolling but in a very passive manner. In such a way that made me feel like they were weak in France, but I prefer to not have the flight response when feeling the gaze of someone who is heavily armed.

In Paris, the cops don't get to use the FAMAS, but German (I think) assault rifles. But in the end it's still the same. And there are not a lot of cops with rifle, it's usually reserved when they are a lot of people in the same place (protest, music festival...). Most of the cops in France will have just a handgun and even then, not all of them.

> perhaps training? perhaps military backgrounds?

Yeah, both, and they are provided with ex-army weapons as well in order to fight "the war on drugs", and train to see every potential citizen as a threat rather than an innocent victim. The book "Rise of the Warrior Cop" explains very well how we got there.

> Swatting is a lot less effective in other parts of the world for the simple reason that in other parts of the world the results are super boring. Two officers will come to the door, ask if everything is ok, perhaps ask to look around, and then leave as calmly as they arrived.

I remember the outrage in Belgium when kidnapper/pedophile Marc Dutroux[1] was found, and it was revealed that police had been previously called to their house, and hadn't taken any action despite (in hindsight) strong evidence.

The hindsight is key here, and I'm absolutely not advocating a change of policy. I'm pointing out the kind of national emotional response that can lead to a change to a more aggressive policy.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Dutroux

It’s because instead of seeing themselves as public servants they see themselves as a gang[0] and have the “us vs. them” attitude which comes with that.

[0] https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/steve-osborne/the...

> To Americans this might not seem odd, because you've been so conditioned to view police like the military

This is an extremely recent occurrence, specifically since 9/11 escalated first responders to `unconditional fragile hero` level.

Google trends for "swatting" - doesn't look related to 9/11 at all.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?cat=16&date=all&geo...

I was referring to the public view of police as an extension of the military, not swatting.

I think Nixon and Reagan’s push for “tough on crime” policy (policy that went on to be pushed further by HW Bush, Clinton, and W Bush)also played a large role. But it definitely got worse after 9/11.

Agreed. I should note I am too young to remember much before 9/11; I just remember the attitude shift at the time.

I'd argue that the real genesis of the paramilitarization of policing was in the civil unrest of the late 1960s. Between the Vietnam War and the civil rights movement, local and state police were being overwhelmed with the demands of policing major demonstrations and riots and became increasingly reliant on the National Guard. Fears of domestic guerrilla warfare by groups like the Black Panthers and the Symbionese Liberation Army led to the establishment of SWAT teams across the country during the 1970s.

The war on drugs saw a vast increase in SWAT activity and funding. The 1981 Military Cooperation with Civilian Law Enforcement Agencies Act facilitated the transfer of military equipment and resources to local and state police departments.

The vast homeland security budget has undoubtedly accelerated the process, but police units with military equipment and training were already widespread before 9/11.

Given that police report to local governments in the US, I would expect diverse responses. I wonder if some municipalities police very alike Europe while others are particularly militaristic. If they're mostly militaristic (like the responses in this thread suggest), I wonder what would drive the uniformity? These are earnest questions; I'm not trying to make any point.

> Given that police report to local governments in the US, I would expect diverse responses.

It doesn't work that way.

Lots of funding for local police comes from state and federal programs. So police end up doing the same thing museums, local theaters, and various other non-profits do-- they do the work required to continue getting the grant money that sustains them.

With a lot of this funding comes conditions in the grant that the department has to fulfill the program's purpose in order to continue getting funding. If a department secures funds to buy a hummer, some rifles, bullet-proof vests, and a drug dog they can't just use those things to take citizens deer hunting all year. They have to put it all to use and show that it was effectively used to fight drugs, or whatever the program is about.

Unfortunately, the U.S. did this batshit insane trillion dollar invasion of Iraq, and now we have a surplus of military equipment and military ideas up for domestic application. So most local police have a decision tree with one branch on it-- sign up for the programs that fund you for "war on drugs" and "post-Iraq war military surplus equipment and ideas" programs. Then maintain funding by doing all the training and policing within the guidelines of those programs and documenting it for further funding.

I don't see any easy way out. Imagine you're an officer and there's a program that will fly you out to an all-expenses-paid anti-terrorism training where you watch your instructors simulate bomb threats and blow a bunch of shit up. What are you going to do, not go?

Thanks for sharing, this was helpful. +1

> To Americans this might not seem odd

Make no mistake: it seems odd to us too. We're just working out exactly what to do about it.

For what it’s worth, most swatting calls don’t end with a shooting, and it’s actually unusual to get the SWAT team. Most police departments will make an effort to gather information before escalating so far. When news articles about swatting showed up in major papers, police departments across the country announced that they were aware that some people believed it was hilarious to make false reports, and they would respond appropriately.

"Two officers will come to the door, ask if everything is ok, perhaps ask to look around, and then leave as calmly as they arrived."

Did you read what Barris told the police operator in the article?

"Barriss allegedly then called the emergency 911 operators in Wichita and said he was at the address provided by Viner, that he’d just shot his father in the head, was holding his mom and sister at gunpoint, and was thinking about burning down the home with everyone inside."

It is an absolutely reasonable and necessary response for the police to respond to such a threat with the level of force that they did.

I am extremely skeptical that other countries police would handle a potential murder/hostage situation like that by calmly walking to the door and asking if everything is ok. They would be foolish to do so.

I remember an account by a French SWAT equivalent (The RAID). In that story, it was an hostage situation, with the hostage held with the knife in an appartement. The officer in charge decided to try to negotiate, all the while the RAID team was waiting next to the door.

There are too many guns in US households. That's why the police reacts as such...

This is my thought too. I feel like being a police officer going to a stranger's home would be a dangerous event in USA. I don't envy them.

Eh. Around here there is quite a lot of guns but it still makes the news if police fires a shot.

Difference is people doesn't usually shoot at each other here, aka culture.