Coinbase acquires decentralized cryptocurrency trading platform Paradex
reuters.com
reuters.com
That said, if trading is the killer app for Bitcoin/Crypto [0] in general - what is the point of this whole business? For example most of the genuinely innovative things I've seen on the ETH blockchain like 0x (the backbone of Paradex), dydx (decentralized derivatives) and related technologies or higher level platforms like relayers and decentralized exchanges involve trading. Which begs the question - what tokens are actually worth trading in the first place? Is all this value really justified by CryptoKitties?
Just making HFT bots to trade around a bunch of monopoly money that is useless other than hype-driven speculation? I'm sure this could continue for way longer than I and other skeptics expect, as it already has before, but the whole cryptocurrency sector seems fairly irrational to me. And I say that as someone who was VERY interested/knowledgable about bitcoin during the 2013 bubble, to the point where I was hanging out on IRC channels like #bitcoin-wizards, discussing BIPs etc.
[0] - https://tradingplacesnewsletter.com/move-over-crypto-enthusi...
To add to your list of points, I'd argue privacy is another thing crypto as a whole hasn't really taken seriously apart from a small set of cryptocurrencies. How many people want to dish out their address to stores when this implies they can see their history and with it way too much metadata like where you spend/earn, how much you spend/earn, and so forth.
I guess the old adage "The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent" really applies here.
I think we're getting closer to tokenizing actual securities. Similar to how TrueUSD is tokenizing U.S. Dollars, I think we're fairly close ( 5 years out) from NASDAQ officially tokenizing their stocks ( as an erc20 on the ethereum blockchain)
Was this a joke that's gone over my head? :)
If they're running a blockchain on their own, doesn't that defeat the point?
> To eliminate _single points of failure, siloing and centralized control_.
There is no really easy way to "get rid of HFT", and it's unclear whether we actually want to do that. Equity trading is very cheap & efficient w/ tiny spreads on everything remotely liquid. Pretty much the only people who get hurt by HFT are big institutional investors (hedge funds, etc) that used to be able to move big blocks of stock without affecting the price as much as they now do. If anything - the pricing is better now. If you own a truckload of oranges and you hear that someone is going around frantically buying up all the oranges at every store, do you not feel like you should consider raising the price of your oranges?
I'm not against HFT at all. But having such granular pricing doesn't do anyone favours. More decimals would reduce spreads as well as silencing HFT critics and maybe make trading a bit more accessible without as much high end systems. But the spread reduction is valuable alone.
Tokenizing securities can open that up, make it more transparent, safer, and less friendly to incumbent interests.
With Coinbase I pay a MUCH larger fee, that is a percentage of the transaction size rather than zero (with Robinhood) or a low fixed cost. With Coinbase I would pay a ~15 dollar fee to buy or sell $1000 dollars of BTC or ETH.
As far as moving money in/out of Fiat, Robinhood/Etrade/etc also win with near instant transfers if your account is already funded. Coinbase buys and sells take days to clear.
Can you provide specific real-world examples of how tokenized securities can help with "transaction costs, slowness, brittleness, mistakes" ?
All securities exchanges incur fees, varying based on wherher you’re eating or supplying liquidity. I forget what these are called, but companies like Interactive brokers pass those fees on. Robinhood eats the fees for you.
With coinbase, you pay a 0% fee as long as you use GDAX, which is a no brainer, and place limit orders that are not immediately executable e.g. sell $.01 above the current price or buy $.01 below.
I’m not the parent so I’m not gonna address the tokenization question, but my opinion is that tokenization helps the users (stockholders), but takes power away from centralized exchanges thus the NASDAQ would be kinda crazy to switch to decentralized assets
Do you really expect the typical person to set a bunch of passive limit orders on GDAX until they get filled? What kind of user experience is that? I would be willing to wager that 95%+ of Coinbase users are just buying and selling directly on Coinbase (and paying the extremely high fees) and have no idea what GDAX is.
Of course that's the case. I never said everyone does that. I said it's a no-brainer to do it.
Back when investors held paper stock certificates, including bearer securities, which de-centralised ownership recording, shares were frequently lost, stolen, damaged and fought over after someone's death, intestacy, bankruptcy et cetera. Returning to tokenized holding would heap costs currently well managed by the system onto end users. (One would also have the problem of irreversible transactions being incompatible with modern law and securities practices.) "Stocks but on blockchain" is a regression for everyone except the hucksters.
Can you give specific, real-world examples about how the "friction" is lower? And what precisely do you mean by "friction" - lower cost? ease of use? something else?
I am in Argentina. I can make a VC-style investment on a company being founded in Europe tomorrow and resell my shares 3 months from now to another investor in Australia with no middlemen, brokers, filings, etc.
That just didn't work before. It would have been impossible for me to do that. Its also more risky in terms of regulatory protection, of course. But in any scenario ICOs are huge disruption for the VC industry, and if the crypto market matures, I expect that to expand into other spaces.
Specific instances of friction: transferring funds, assigning shares, lack of liquidity of both shares and secondary markets (or, quite simply, lack of markets).
Whether I agree with these developments or not is completely irrelevant. I'll personally stick to pursing a market neutral strategy and exploiting intraday ETF discrepancies for now.
I’m not advocating this argument, just relaying it since you asked.
If you're Coinbase and you get to buy Bitfinex/Tether at a firesale price + pay some fines to the SEC if needed, why not?
what a great question. 9 years later we're still trying to figure out what the point is.
How is that different from the rest of the financial market? The huge chunk of all HFT trading is siphoning the money from real investors, it has no real value for the economy. HFT traders hold no positions in the market.
For equities trading, for example the shares actually are a piece of a revenue earning company. The trading activity benefits society by allowing the company to sell additional shares to the public when needed, to raise further capital, for example.
For futures the contracts represent a guarantee to buy or sell a commodity at a known amount and price at a set date in the future. The trading activity benefits society by allowing commodity producers to lock in a known price and offload the market risk of their harvest/herd/etc to speculators.
So the HFT participants in these markets are actually helping society in some way by making these markets more liquid and efficient given that the trading actually serves some benefit. For bitcoin/crypto the trading itself is currently the whole point of the endeavor - people are only buying coins because they think they will go up in price, which makes the trading itself pointless.
But you should really read up on what HFT is. I recommend the book Flash Boys by Michael Lewis. HFT traders do not "trade" in the market in the usual sense. They don't optimize markets, they don't bet on anything, they don't take any risk. Every other investor takes risks (calculated), and that's their contribution to the market. They hedge risks and discover prices for those underlying assets you are talking about. HFTs are exploiting the markets, take no risks and siphon the money out of those investors that actually provide a service for the market.
In fact, the most common form of HFT is low-latency market making, which directly increases liquidity and lowers spreads for market participants.
That's the issue you have with it? Of all the possible issues, that's the one you think underlines the bad quality of the book?
The fiber lines or microwave feeds or any other technology used is only a minor detail. The meat of the issue is that there are many HFT strategies that don't provide any real tangible service to the market. HFTs race clients to different exchanges, buy assets cheaper and sell them the next millisecond to the same client at higher price, because they can (because the client is slower). They put in fake small orders in order to read market information before anyone else so they can front-run legitimate investors. How is that providing service to the market?
There seems to be a lot of disinformation in the market, and a lot of things that are meant to sound much more complicated than they are. But the bottomline is that if there is a certain strategy X, that complies with the following conditions: 1) It doesn't take positions in the market, doesn't take risk, so it doesn't evaluate underlying assets and does not help price discovery. 2) It gets in the way between two other participants, simplifyingly a buyer and a seller (where the buyer will end up holding an actual invested position for a longer time) 3) Both the buyer and the seller will end up paying more for their trade when the HFTs are executing the strategy X, compared to a case where noone would be executing the strategy X.
Then yes, it's objective to say that the strategy X is a parasite on the market, and does not provide any real value to the society. The value of markets is providing liquidity, distribution of investment value, risk hedging and price discovery. These HFTs (which is a bulk of all HFT strategies) don't do any of that. No real investor will notice a difference of 50 microseconds when executing their trades. No investor is interested in that.
And as the sibling commenter said I suggest reading other sources besides Flash Boys, which I have read before. There is a lot of misinformation in that book. And by the way, IEX has been a public exchange now for some time and still has a tiny share of the volume.
This is not "providing liquidity". This is parasitic behavior. Not all HFT strategies do this, but many do.
I'm not disagreeing with what you said, but I would add that if you were very interested before the 2013 bubble and then lost interest, you were/are irrational as well. Like everyone else you're taking views on the price based on the price.
I have no way to rationalize a target at $100k, especially sharing the pie with other currencies... not saying it won’t go there, I just don’t know the math for that.
Given that there’s not a great reason to buy at $8k. Maybe for diversity among other investments.
Seriously though. Would you share your calculations?
DEXs are great because you can trade cryptocurrency pairs without trusting an intermediary (think Mt. Gox for why this is needed).
This move shows that Coinbase is serious about building a decentralized trading platform (unless this is just an acquihire which would be very disappointing).
Really exciting news!
There is still an intermediary, they just never touch your funds.
[0]: http://hackingdistributed.com/2017/08/13/cost-of-decent/
https://blog.0xproject.com/front-running-griefing-and-the-pe...
https://blog.0xproject.com/front-running-griefing-and-the-pe...
Acquihire? It would be weird for Coinbase to take full advantage of a descentralized exchange because many of the tokens clash with regulations and even being decentralized makes Coinbase the owner and target for SEC.
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1735689/000173568918...
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1735709/000173570918...
What's the point of a decentralized exchange if the frontend code can be shutdown at will?
You can have decentralization with respect to some components of the exchange and not others. In the case of Paradex it seems the point of decentralization is that you don't have to trust the exchange for custody. That's quite good by itself, even if they can shut down the frontend at will.
I've had this thought myself. I think we can agree that most solid evidence points to Yes, trading is the killer app. Trading on something that has no intrinsic value. I.e. gambling.
And hey, gambling is a legitimate killer app. The gambling industry is enormous.