Sony introduces the DPT-CP1 digital paper tablet with a $600 price tag | Hacker News Reader

Sony introduces the DPT-CP1 digital paper tablet with a $600 price tag

qz.com

53 pointsprostoalex62 comments

What a strangely negative review of something the reviewer hasn't actually set eyes on. It doesn't make sense to compare the price of this to 5000 sheets of paper or a luxury pen.

The techcrunch blurb is less focused on the price and has slightly more technical info: https://techcrunch.com/2018/05/21/sony-shrinks-its-digital-p...

It's a little ridiculous considering you can't carry around 5000 sheets of paper very easily

It's also not counting printer ink, which for 5000 sheets, will cost a lot.

For a laser, $80?

I have a Remarkable tablet which I think is the only direct competitor to Sony's writable e-paper tablets. It's really jank! That's to be expected of early adoption. But also, it's nice to use. I love taking math notes in it.

The main stat for these products is the pen latency. Sony's previous product, the DPT-RP1, according to reviews, had worse latency than the Remarkable, which to me is only noticeable if I make a fast stroke and look for it. I don't have any official numbers from Sony though.

I'm watching this space as it develops. I preordered the Remarkable which took a lot off its price tag-- I wouldn't buy any of these devices at their current price points. They would need to be much more polished. A lot of that is on the software side, so such a device with an open, supported platform would be quite exciting.

>The main stat for these products is the pen latency.

Exactly! And it's infuriating not to see this being talked about.

I've been watching Noteslate[1] promotional videos (they aim for the same share of the pie), but even in the videos the latency wasn't looking good.

[1]http://noteslate.com/

There isn't only one.

Onyx boox max 2 is better in everything than remarkable or sony.

Why? I'm interested in picking something like this up.

It's an android device with access to the play store, that mans kindle, epub, pdf, cbr, browsing, reading pocket articles, etc etc. It also have an HDMI and can be used as monitor.

check it out the youtube videos, the device is expensive but amazing, nothing comes close.

"jank" = _ ?

Jank = of extremely poor or unreliable quality.

Sony has built a new app (for iOS and Android) that lets users port over documents to read, notate, or sign on the CP1.

IMHO this is the worst part: this "appification"(?) of devices, essentially using proprietary interfaces, is a hideous affront to interoperability and easy data exchange. Why does every device manufacturer feel like it has to put in effort to develop a bespoke application just to interface with its own devices, when there are plenty of standard interfaces they could use? USB mass storage, or if you want to be fancy, MTP, is an ideal way of transferring files between devices --- and it's a shame that it hasn't become more popular. Instead we see more of this proprietary shit, and even "cloud based" devices that somehow need to reach out into the Internet in order to communicate and exchange files with your PC sitting less than a metre away... if I buy something like this I don't want to install an app, register an account for a service (no doubt accompanied by some long and not-very-privacy-reassuring ToS), or even need an Internet connection --- I want to take it out of the box, turn it on, draw on it, then plug it into my PC and start copying files to/from it.

On the other hand, once the Chinese start making clones of these, I wouldn't be surprised if they did use standard UMS or MTP, like all their existing eBook readers and media players/recorders.

...and backup to MiniDisc.

> Why does every device manufacturer feel like it has to put in effort to develop a bespoke application just to interface with its own devices,

Can you name successful tablet manufacturers? There's only one. And they lock down their tablet like a vice. The fact is people don't give a shit about all this. They want a good device. If Sony is to succeed, they'd rather succeed like this than succeed with a very open device that can be used to subvert their tool chain.

> There's only one.

In 2017 Apple only had 27% of the tablet market, and that's a slight increase. Samsung and Amazon are strong competitors.

From what I understand, the app is not the only way to transfer files...

Can't have users learning a common way of transferring data to any device, then it would be easy to switch to cheaper competitors. If we build an app customers will be loyal to avoid the learning curve of a new app.

Sony has always been this way with proprietary goods but never made as good a device as apple did. it was always "fake nice" but with a premium price.

I got the DPT-RP1 2 months ago for my graduate studies. Despite all the known problems, one of the best gadgets I ever got.

It replaced my notebook completely and lots of papers as well. The lack of apps (compared to Ipad Pro/Surface etc.) is a feature for me as the device focuses on its strengths and limits distractions for me. It is way more convenient to take to meetings than any other electronic device. Reading is perfect (and no comparison to any non-e-paper device) and note taking works well too. Had no problem with the app so far (on windows). My only cons are the high price and build quality (does not really feel like a "premium" device, don't know if it holds for many years).

Would highly recommend the device (RP1/CP1 - whatever size desired) for anyone who needs to read a lot of papers / take a lot of notes and doesn't mind the high price.

I have the DPT-S1 and it's was a great device to use as a student when I had to read tons and tons of papers. I could mark up the papers all I want and not lose my papers (which I used to do all the time). Though the pen is pretty frustrating to use (because of the lag) and the device is super slow at loading, it was bearable enough that I would use it all the time. Now that I don't have to read pdfs all that much, I don't use it much. But I really want a device like that except it's fast, has a nice pen, has high dpi, and you can browse the web with it. Well..I guess basically I'm thinking of a tablet except eink.

The quality of (any) mutable e-paper tablet will boil down to:

1. writing movement-to-pixel latency (should be around 5ms)

2. writing experience (tilting support, pressure levels, anti-aliasing, ...)

3. speed of apps on the device

4. shareability of annotations

5. "stroke-recognition" of diagrams, text, math formula's, etc

6. mashing of touch & pencil gestures

7. apps on the platform

I'd argue that only the Surface 4 solves (1) & (2) completely, with the competition between 75% and 90%. Speed (3) is a solved problem for mobile CPU/GPU/LED/OLED hardware, but e-paper is not close to 50%. (4) is also still quite young, since the "write on digital paper" thing is not even being used by enthusiasts (only some rarae niches show consistent use). (5) is mostly solved for handwriting recognition, and good progress is made on diagrams and math formula's. But it's young, and certainly not yet a commodity. (6) seems quite solved, as most algorithms to distinct between pencils and hand/finger touches work quite well. (7) is not yet solved, there are no good apps. Some exist, but they have "handwriting" as a feature, but not as a core feature.

Color may come in as 8th, but is for most digital authoring not that important. It would certainly increase the potential market for a good e-paper device, but would come last on above list.

In the past 15 years, progress on e-paper display technology has been slow but steady. Is the latency problem solved yet? Or are we still around 100ms?

Latency on the DPT-RP1 is exactly the same as those third party pens with an old iPad. Very noticeable.

Apple's iPad Pro has excellent latency IMHO.

The iPad pro has much better (1) than the Surface 4 does.

For 5., see this in early stages: https://github.com/harvardnlp/im2markup

I don't know if you count the Samsung tab s3 in the competition but the latency seems to be a bit above 100ms.

You get used to it but it's annoying and I've tried all the apps to take notes I found and they are all not great.

Squid beeing the best one so far but it feels like they tried to make a great app but couldn't for some reason. For example it only renders what's currently on the screen instead of rendering something that has 1.5x the size of the screen, so when you want to move up/down you don't see anything until you release your finger. That and the selection tool is broken: you can only select rectangular portion of text. It's infuriating

I'll be curious to read reviews of this from people who have laid hands on it. I bought a ReMarkable and absolutely love it. I am in graduate school, so I take a lot of notes and read a lot of papers, and the ReMarkable fits this need very well (though it could use a bit more flexibility in file organization). In have used an iPad for papers, but I prefer the B&W, matte, slightly textured screen for extended reading sessions. More options on the market is good IMO.

Unfortunately many of these devices from Sony have a few major downsides.

    1. Extremely expensive 
    2. No way to export my work to my system (Linux desktop)
    3. No "endless" scratch pad with single-click next-page

These devices would be a godsend for long meetings, technical doodles, and ereading. It could become an integral part of my day to day workflow. I just can't afford this heafty price tag for this restricted feature set and I think many other people have this mindset.

> No way to export my work to my system (Linux desktop)

It sounds like you can export to a PDF, no?

You need Sony's software to transfer files back/forth. And it's only available on Mac/PC.

But looks like there is maybe a workaround: https://github.com/janten/dpt-rp1-py

Exporting to HTML with audio from meeting wiuld be awesome.

The device is A5 not A4! https://www.sony.jp/digital-paper/products/DPT-CP1/ Doesn't seem to be available anywhere or have reviews as not being released till June and then only into the Japanese market. http://kakaku.com/kaden/digital-memo/ranking_6576/ shows other (weird and wonderful) devices in the Japanese market that might be of interest, like Boogieboard and http://www.kingjim.co.jp/pomera/dm200/ Pomera DM200.

> Pomera DM200.

What am I missing here? What can it do vs an old Vaio P or even the GDP Pocket?

Distraction free writing seems to be its attraction - e.g. http://journeyto1000.com/distraction-free-writing-pomera-dm1... Sit down and write your 10,000 words towards your novel, blog post etc.

Write! on Linux will do that too.

I really hope this is really going to be released. And I really hope this technology can be integrated with standard Linux desktops.

The ability to read PDF's on paper-white would be really nice.

The ability to read/write code on the paper-white would probably improve the lives of many developers, myself included.

I've been hunting for an e-paper coding solution for a while and have yet to find a solution that works well. The best I've seen is the Onyx Boox Max 2, which has HDMI input:

https://onyxboox.com/boox_max2

Unfortunately, aside from being prohibitively expensive they're apparently difficult to get in the US. Amazon and Wal-Mart both have them listed for sale but refuse to actually ship them to my address.

You can get that now with the Onyx Boox Max 2 [1] which as a built in HDMI display input.

[1] - https://onyxboox.com/boox_max2

To save people time: http://www.ectaco.com/onyx-boox-max/

And not to be too cynical. But has anybody ever tried them an found them to work well? $800 is an expensive experiment.

Some googling and apparently you can buy e-ink display modules for relatively cheap [1]. Does anyone have any thoughts on whether you can hook this up to a keyboard, whether that's practical, and what that might be like?

[1] https://shopkits.eink.com/product/13-3%CB%9D-epaper-display-...

As with the ReMarkable: call me when you got handwriting recognition on the device. I had a CrossPad, the progress in twenty years is very seriously underwhelming. The CrossPad allowed you to write on a notepad with a special pen and it stored your strokes in a vector format. The ReMarkable and these Sony devices allow you to write on a screen with a special pen and they record your strokes in a vector format. The ability to click an icon to get a new page vs actually flipping to a new page is all what happened in twenty years! The price is about the same, it was 400 in 1997, these things are 600 now, which is about inflation.

I had a Cassiopeia with WindowsCE in the late 90s and a program called Calligrapher that did this. I was impressed because I have horrible handwriting and it was able to consistently recognize it.

So it's always strange to hear that no one offers handwriting recognition on these devices.

I use an ipad pro for note taking in OneNote with the Pencil. While handwriting recognition would be nice (make the notes searchable), it's still extremely useful without it. I just review my notes every evening and take action on the important bits right then.

I thought one note automatically makes all the handwriting searchable. Is that not true?

I haven't tried it on the iPad, but it definitely does on the Surface 3.

I have had the original DPT-S1 since 2015. I got it before starting school and have used it for textbooks throughout. Weighs a few pounds less than any textbook, let alone all my textbooks. For this it is amazing.

For handwriting... Not so much. Can only write with one hand in one orientation.

New split screen mode is pretty tantalizing. I could be persuaded to upgrade if this model has a better stylus situation--I could stop carrying a notebook altogether most days.

P.S. To the sony employees out thre: A graphing app would be amazing

I really would love a device like this for sketching in design meetings. But I really can't see myself paying more than $250 for something like this.

The desirable feature for me is the display, primarily. I find e-ink displays easier to read with variable overhead lighting situations. If this is flat on a table in a conference room while I sketch I don't want too much reflectivity.

What about being able to get or create an eInk display? (That you plug in / connect to a computer.) Yeah, it's not going to deal with heavily moving content well, but for reading and text editing, it could be great.

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't have to be touch-enabled, either. Just a non-fatiguing eInk display for viewing and working with mostly static / slowly changing content.

Stay as far away from these as you can. I have owned the DPT-RP1 for 9 months now and Sony being true to their form provides zero support. Zero. No updates to the firmware, terrible customer support and no blogs or content about any future for the product.

Buy an iPad Pro. Far better value for money.

That's my biggest reservation about Sony products. They treat software and computers like consumer electronics that are expected to function with a fixed feature set from the day they're born to the day they die.

I can see the merits in this for the less tech savy and that might have made sense in the 90s but not today.

That's ironic to me. I swore off Sony products in the early 2000s after being burned on their early digital cameras and voice recorders, which were decent hardware but ran only on proprietary software and storage formats (e.g. the inferior and overpriced Memory Stick [0]). But the great quality of their mirrorless cameras converted me into a fan. The PS4 is also pretty solid. That said, I don't think I trust Sony enough yet to buy anything of theirs that isn't a camera or game system.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_Stick

Sony's Xperia line of phones are great. They feel amazing (though a little worse than they used to; the Z3/Z3 Compact are, to me, peak phones) and I've never had a problem with updates.

I prefer Panasonic cameras to Sony, but I do live and the consumer/prosumer Sony cameras are too expensive for the feature set compared to Panasonic. If I shot photos primarily I would probably own a Sony.

The main problem I had with the Z3C was that it had an ideal frictionless plane of a back and kept sliding off of everything.

A lot of people had that problem, but it never really bothered me. My other favorite phone was the iPhone 4, though, so at least I'm consistent. ;)

Honestly, I kinda like the look of it. Not enough to drop $600 on it just yet, but maybe a third or half.

Has anyone used both or either the previous model, the DPT-RP1, and the reMarkable? If you have, what's your opinion on using them? I'm considering getting one of them for note-taking in classes

I own the DPT-RP1 and regret purchasing it. If you compare it to the latest iPad Pro the battery life is worse (no joke), the handwriting is very laggy, the end of the pen wears down like a pencil, the software is a joke, the lack of blacklight disappointing and the lack of updates or third party apps unacceptable.

Remarkable looks genuinely interesting.

Wow that's insane. That defeats one of the primary purposes of having an eInk screen.

Thanks for the response :)

My current solution is using Xournal on my Lenovo Yoga. (Xournal is amazing)

I like the concept. I have a cheap lcd blackboard from eBay that I use to doodle concepts on and it's amazing so I think to the right person this would be really valuable as well.

The design is awesome. I like the sleek no nonsense aesthetic. Reminds me of thinkpads of yore. We need phones and laptops that look like this.

I put a textured matte screen protector on my ipad pro. It feels very much like pen on paper when writing with the Apple stylus.

I really just want a simple laptop with one of these displays so that I can code in the sun. Need me some sun.

That was really shitty journalism. A complete waste of my time.

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