Spend analysis of 6 years, 686 rides, and $12k spent on Uber (2017)
nealmueller.com
nealmueller.com
The big difference is this person is only using ~114 rides/year, whereas just commuting to work I use my car for ~400 rides/year. Add in one out and back weekend trip (ignoring shopping trips through the week etc.) and we're up to 500 rides/year. If my average ride cost were the same as this person ($17.50/ride) I'd be looking at over $700/mo.
But there is no way it gets 35 mpg. I have been keeping track meticulously and the maximum I get is about 30 mpg, and it drops to 27 if I do any city driving. If I do only highway driving, I can get up to 320 miles in a single tank, but I'm driving on fumes at the end. I normally get about 280 miles per tank, which is about 27 mpg at 10.6 gallons.
Also, with my 2011 Honda Fit, I'm at 120k miles. I've had 2 sets of new tires, but no other maintenance besides regularly scheduled maintenance.
Mine is an '08 - they seem to have gotten heavier in later years. It also has a manual transmission, which offers more flexibility for conserving brakes and fuel. My wife gets more in the 32-34mpg range, but doesn't keep close tabs on it - she also now has a couple car seats and toddlers in the car, so weight penalty.
EDIT: There might genuinely be an issue with your car - I have a 10.8 gal tank as well but routinely get over 400 miles per tank - 370 if I've been driving more aggressively.
MPG on the Fit depends on how you drive it. It hits max MPG at about 55MPH, if I recall correctly.
Now in TX you have highways with 85mph speed limit (most are 75), and in CA people drive as if the speed limit was 85 anyway - which is how I end up with the same mileage as what you report.
Still, the goal is a ballpark not an exact number and that's plenty to say Uber would have been a poor fit.
Yes but the $17K plus the interest would be $18.7K. :)
And like I said, it's still a much better deal than Uber, but the opportunity cost of the up front money is often missed in these types of calculations, and can be significant.
I did not account for the interest that could've been earned on that $17k (which could conservatively be $1700, aggressively could've been another $17k).
I also did not account for the residual value of a 10 year old 120k mile Honda Fit, which is probably in the $5k range.
You need to look at pricinciple - expenses + interest for each month on both sides. Consider if he had a pile of money to cover 700$ a month in Uber driving and what would happen on each path.
It’s an odd reference for the comparison.
Adaptive cruise control makes driving less stressful/more pleasant but you still have to be mentally there. No system is full proof, and certainly not at this stage.
I stand corrected ... THIS is the most hilarious thing I've read all day.
Edit: Removed the other adjectives because clearly, humor was intended.
This is the most "BMW driver" quote I have ever read.
$12,041 over 6 years is $2006 per year, which is about $167 per month.
All of my friends pay about that much just for car insurance every month. Throw in a car payment ($200/mo. - $500/mo. depending on the terms of the lease), gas, and maintenance (regular oil changes, tire replacements, etc.) and you'll end up way north of $12,000 after 6 years.
I pay just over half of that for three cars and two adult drivers. (and in Massachusetts, which does not have a fully open/competitive insurance market.)
Wife and I have not had any traffic infractions in over 3 years.
I haven't had a traffic infraction in at least 3 years (moved to West coast 3 years ago). ~30 year old male, married and are insuring a 2015 Cherokee with $2,500 deductibles.
My advice, if you can set aside $2,500 or have it in savings I would move your deductible up and use insurance for severe accidents. Don't use insurance to replace a cracked windshield.
We carry many multiples of the state minimum, which was needed to secure an umbrella policy for the excess. That doesn't include the umbrella, which we have in place mostly for other reasons (and is cheap).
We definitely have a problem here in this state though.
They claimed the rate would stay that way for several years, so I got rid of my car. I was going to get a car again once the rate lowered, but it turns out I didn't need one. Now I'm saving bundles of cash. (So, in a weird, way: Thanks, Progressive)
Even the most bare bones policy I could find after that dropped off my record was $140 / mo for state minimum coverage at 22.
Annoyingly I never made a claim so all of that money was wasted in the end.
My girlfriend takes an Uber home from work every day right now (I drop her off in the morning then head to work. I'm still at work when she gets off work). It costs her an average of $25 per trip. 25 * 5 days a week * 4 weeks per month = $500/month in expenses. That's for a single 20 minute Uber (usually Lyft now, it's been cheaper) a day, that's it. I'm surprised the OP can get away with $167 in Uber expenses doing without two cars as the OP suggests.
It's about 40 extra miles I drive a day for her also, since her work is in the opposite direction of mine, so tack on the extra maintenance required for 800 miles per month on my car (hasn't been too much yet, but the car is starting to get old... let's say $40/month ), along with that much in gas (right now about $104 a month), and our total cost per month for her to go without a car is $644 a month.
My car payment is about $300 a month, so let's assume she can find the same or even less in a lease, especially since her credit is better, and I already estimated the fuel and maintenance as $140, but it'd transfer over to her paying it. Then she'd probably have to pay about $100 a month for car insurance (I pay less, but she'd be a new driver), and therefore our total costs for her to drive are probably around $540 a month, or about $100 a month cheaper.
To me that's a pretty slim margin. The main reason I wouldn't mind her starting to drive is it wouldn't be necessary to take her to certain places and save me an hour out of the day every day, not due to savings. Which I always assumed we would save a lot of money if she drove, until I did the math.
Also I live in the suburbs so if neither of us had cars our Uber expenses would be like $2006 a month, not per year, based on how much we drive currently. But it does look like having only 1 car in the household might be feasible, instead of the assumed 1 car per individual, like was the default in the previous generation.
You'll never, ever take Land Cruisers away from me.
I don't own car (nor have any intention of doing so) due to being too blind to drive safely, but not blind enough for any sort of government assistance.
(I'm not legally prevented from driving, I'm being considerate of the safety of others.)
Unfortunately Uber is kind of undermining public transportation though. In my city transit ridership is down, which ultimately impacts funding.
I can sit outside any sort of venue/party/bar and watch Ubers pull up by the dozen. 5 years ago most of those people would have been walking to public transit because cabs were more realistically priced (for the medallion owners at least, the drivers often got shafted there too). Uber trips often cost less than the price of simply stepping foot inside a taxi.
I've talked to my neighbors (6 college students sharing a house), and they've literally never taken public transit since living in the city, and we're ~5 minutes from a major bus station and ~10 minutes from a subway station. I was flabbergasted.
Of course, traffic is worse than ever (this is attributable to multiple factors not limited to Uber/Lyft).
Car culture is huge thing. I just bought an Audi S3, and derive pleasure whenever I hit the throttle.
uber makes money on every ride. they operate at a loss annually because they invest everything in expanding to avoid paying taxes - like most companies do.
It's also true that it's not sure they will ever reach profitability. Therefore, my comment.
They said sensible car. A car you need a loan for is not a sensible car.
You negotiate the price you are willing to pay. The dealer has no idea if you are leasing, paying cash, or financing. The all-in price is either financed or leased at a specified interest rate. They do not "add in" an up front payment. That doesn't even make sense, and would be incredibly misleading.
If we negotiate $25,000 for the car,and I finance at 0%, you are saying they up the price to $27,500 to "build in a profit"? Nonsense. The numbers are in front of you and you can do the calculations yourself with high school math. 0% is 0%.
You are totally out of your element and shouldnt be providing financial advice. Maybe that's why the dealer rips you off.
Edmunds has a calculator if you need help with the high school math: https://www.edmunds.com/calculators/incentives-rebates.html
2. Even if I take your assumption as the other poster's definition of sensible and remove any car payment, gas + insurance + maintenance yields a 6 year cost above $12k. My point stands.
This will depend on the individual circumstances. Liability insurance is significantly cheaper than full coverage. Average annual liability insurance is ~$552/year [1]. Driving the ridiculous 12k miles per year that average americans drive, a Prius would burn roughly 226 gallons of gas. At today's price of gas ($2.94), that's $664/yr. At 6 years insurance and gas will run you $7,296. I'm very skeptical of depreciation + maintenance blowing $4,704 over 6 years on a Prius...
The high cost of car insurance, coupled with the low wages in this state, are a significant factor that kept a lot of my peers in poverty well out of high school. The usual story goes like this:
- Reliant on a hand-me-down car to get to work.
- Work barely pays for rent, car insurance, gas, and food.
- Car needs maintenance but no money for that.
Charitably, I think the lowest I've seen anyone's insurance payment in this state is $89/month, because they were over the age of 25 and their car fit the requirements for lower insurance rates nicely. They still had a car payment ($400/mo. IIRC) though.
Again: liability insurance is a different thing. When you don't own your car (aka when you take a car loan), you are required to have insurance that can cover the cost of the car. When you own your car, you only need to pay for liability insurance, which is much cheaper.
Your story is all too common in the U.S. It's expensive being poor here. The frugal solution is to have money to buy a car outright. It's tough getting out from under that dilemma.
You can even find pretty good lease deals on the more expensive BMW i3 - used electrics are pretty undervalued at the moment.
Would he have stuck with 2 cars for 10 years, or 2 cars for a year each? 10 years of uber vs 2 cars over 10 years will definitely shift the savings number in favor of car ownership compared to 2 years.
He didn't give up his cars until uber pool, so for a great deal of the data he is using uber in addition to his regular car, which limits his uber expenses.
Because the largest portion of his savings comes from the shift to uber pool, this is completely invalid for anyone except a single adult. Anyone with a spouse or children, or anyone doing even average shopping, anyone not in a major downtown, will not be seeing these savings.
He's only traveling around town, and seemingly only using Uber less than once per day, even during his peak usage. Is he using public transportation? Google transportation? Friends? I don't see how one can get to and from work, and run errands, and go out in the evenings or on weekends, and average 200 rides per year (again, during his optimum savings period). Is he working from home most of the time?
He mentions renting cars for longer trips, but this is not included in his costs. In addition, his uber trips are all in SF... like, yeah, if you only travel within a major US city, transportation costs can be pretty low (and why not just use public transportation?).
All of this implies to me that, not only are his calculations wildly off, not only are his uber costs under-reported, but even with all that, the entire, incredibly ideal, situation is reproducible only by a very small minority of the population. Alternatively, the other interpretation is that he was wildly overpaying and under-utilizing his cars before.
Here is a more realistic calculation for a US resident: 30k car, 10 years 10k gas, 5k insurance, 7k repairs = ~5k per year.
vs.
4 trips per day, on average, for 1-2 persons @ $20 per trip = $29k per year. And that's being generous--I'm pretty sure my spouse and child and I would blow through at least $50k a year if we switched entirely to Uber, and we have a very typical travel pattern for the US.
"My rides increased a lot in June 2016, when I sold both my cars. I’m solely reliant on Uber (and buses) to get around town in San Francisco."
> Incidentals on the vehicles cost $3,450 per year: $1,000 maintenance, $500 insurance, $1,500 gas (just above the national average of $1,400), $300 car washes (so shiny), $150 registration, and $0 parking.
Let's say 50% of the maintenance and the insurance was the Jeep (probably not, since the BMW should be more expensive to insure), and 100% of the gas costs would go to a single car (balances out the other way, since the BMW probably had better milage). 50% of registration. Stop getting your car washed. Total:
$2,325/yearly for just the Jeep. So on average he's still saving a little bit of money on the Uber. On the other hand, if you just compare the last three years he'd be better off with just the Jeep. The average is very skewed by 2011 and 2012, when he didn't Uber much.
He doesn't assign any cost to wait time; I'd be interested to find out how much time he's spent waiting for his Ubers to show up. I bet Uber doesn't give you that information on your account but I don't have an Uber account to check.
Interesting analysis effort anyhow! I'm critiquing but I like the general idea and I'm glad he published this.
There are definitely people who are better off not owning a full-time car, but I agree with the poster above who find it a bit disingenuous to compare to a $80,000 M3. You could definitely find a car that would cost you under 12K for six years -- especially if you already have a car that's all-or-almost paid off.
The factor on the other side of the fence is that though comfort, etc, is usually lower in the back seat of a Lyft than in the driver's seat of your own personal car, you're not having to do the work of driving. If you want to save money, this is labor that'll be worth it to you driving your own cheap car. But if you want to save effort/stress/etc, it's worth spending to not drive yourself, especially in high-traffic areas.
OK, let's make up some numbers...
267 rides last year. Assume, I dunno, average 5 minute wait? So 22.25 hours of waiting; half a week. Huh, that's actually pretty significant given the author is probably making pretty good money in his role.
I wonder what his "savings" would look like if he used only 1 car for himself and didn't get to write off $500+ a month in depreciation.
I went 2 years without a car and it was great when I was in the period of my life where I wanted to be head down and studying to get a better job. I spent almost nothing on Uber because I used public transit or walked everywhere. I can count on one hand the amount of times I used Uber, seriously.
Even after I bought my house which is in a suburb kind of in Seattle I continued to go car-less which included a 3mi round trip walk to the grocery store. Didn't mind it much, just had to plan around the weather.
However I moved to the PNW so I could get outside and experience it, not spend my life in the city. Going hiking means 80-100 mile round trips easily on the weekend and Turo, reachnow, zip car were just not ideal for this. Cost is prohibitive if you're doing it every weekend. That's a minimum of $80-$100 * 4 if I go out just one day on each weekend.
I bought a beater truck for under $3k. It has 4wd and a bed to toss all of my gear in. It's the perfect vehicle. Insurance is super cheap, only need liability because who cares if it gets totaled it's already banged up. I can run to Home Depot and get stuff for my projects around the house, toss my bikes in the bed, do my shopping. It covers all the bases and gives me the connivence of not having to deal with finding a reachnow car or meeting up with someone for Turo, etc. One important caveat, I also do my own repairs so if you aren't mechanically inclined it might not be the right choice. I only drive the vehicle on the weekends and still commute via bike or bus to work.
I also noticed that because of my inherently cheap nature I wouldn't rent a vehicle to go do these things even if the end result is that it's cheaper than car ownership. My brain just can't get over the fact that I'm directly paying for the hike, or the trip to the store, etc. I think a lot of people also feel this way and idk how to overcome that kind of irrational thought, but in the end the opportunity cost of having a vehicle is worth it, if it means I'm actually getting out and doing things I enjoy instead of staying home or in the city.
To add to this point: renting a car not only takes money, but also advance planning. A rental car is not waiting for you to just jump in and go at your home.
I realized I want to see the total solar eclipse 9 hours before it started, and it was an 8 hour drive. Wouldn't do it with a rental.
I'm not sure the price tag is what's stopping me from climbing Mount Everest _unguided_ :)
I lived carfree in Milwaukee for a while (picking that as an example of a city that only has bus service), and the time savings really didn't seem that bad once I got used to it. A trip to one of the shopping malls on my side of town was about the worst-case scenario, and there it typically took ~40m on the bus, versus ~20m by car. I like reading and I had a Nintendo DS at the time, so that ~20m difference was spent doing what I would have probably done with the extra time, anyway. I was just doing it without a cat in my lap.
An easy trade, I thought, considering that I was typically spending no more than $10 a week on bus fare. Often more like $0, especially in the summer, when it was more fun to get around by bike. Owning a car or using a taxi service for my main way of getting around would have cost thousands per month. That's quite a few fewer apples, and not a whole lot more oranges.
We technically have a bus system, but it’s a joke.
A good credit card will cover Collision Damage (though you may need to shove a copy of the card's rental coverage in the face of the rental sales associate as they may try to claim it isn't covered). You can pay the minimum liability insurance, or you can get a "non-owner liability insurance policy" which will cover you for the year, saving you money if you rent frequently. Personal accident insurance is optional and may be covered by your health insurance.
At least compared to NYC, where I could hop on the subway to anywhere in the boroughs.
Estonia plans to be the first one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17107317 So it doesn't exist yet, but might come true soon enough.
Baltimore has a free shuttle bus called the Charm City Circulator. It's not intended to move people around the city. Instead it's targeted at a central problem area that may otherwise be prone to increased traffic congestion, pollution, and slower or lower ridership. It also facilitates tourism and gives an incentive for workers to live in/near the downtown area.
The CCC is popular enough that it's hard to get on one heading downtown in the mornings because they're so packed with people heading to work. And strangely enough, it's much cleaner and with fewer undesirable riders than regular (paid) buses in the city. This is probably due to the historically segregated layout of the city and the particular routes these buses take. The biggest problem with the CCC is it hasn't been funded or maintained properly, so these strange custom shuttles are breaking down and there's nothing to replace them. As a result they had to cut down some of the routes, while they also expanded the most popular route to travel farther north.
When it comes to long-distance transport (between cities) children travel free, but the parent with the buggy has to pay.
Edit: For comparison-purposes an electronic ticket for unlimited (local) tram, bus, or subway travel would cost an adult approximately €50/month.
http://metro.kingcounty.gov/tops/bus/ride-free-area/index.ht...
No wonder politicians can so easily manipulate the public. “I don’t pay money at the time the service is rendered, therefore it’s free!” It is coming out of your pocket, just at a different time.
> The US as a whole subsidizes car ownership to a huge degree.
Are you making hand wavy arguments about wars for oil or something? Last I checked roads are paid for by various taxes, including gas tax, which I pay.
When you combine the total cost of ownership, subsidies, and infrastructure, you'll find that cars are far more expensive, privately and publically, at moving people than buses.
Unless you happen to use a bus. Then you benefit from it. And as a non-public transport user, I subsidize your public transit. It’s a wash.
> When you combine the total cost of ownership, subsidies, and infrastructure, you'll find that cars are far more expensive, privately and publically, at moving people than buses.
I never said otherwise. I objected to the argument that there is such a thing as a “free” bus service. The OP was comparing said “free” service to paying for a bus ticket. It’s not a fair comparison to make.
If we go to a restaurant, and go halvesies on the bill, but I order a salad, and you order a steak dinner with a bottle of champagne, it's not a wash. Subsidies to public transit vs subsidies to personal automobiles is more similar to that situation.
But yes, nothing is free. However, plenty of services are 'free', in that there is no cost to the user, as opposed to a non-user.
Since he also has two other vehicles, he was clearly using those to drive too. He's sold them now, but he doesn't mention anything about the cost of Turo which he suggests as an alternative.
I have no idea exactly what Uber breaks down to per mile, but ridester.com suggests $1 to $2.50 per mile. Let's assume it's as cheap as $1/mile to give him the benefit of the doubt and account for UberPool.
----
At $1/mile, he traveled 12k miles over 6 years - or 2000 miles/year.
* Maintenance on 12k miles would basically be nothing. No major work should need to be done in a 12k window. Probably some wipers, some fluid changes, possibly a minor repair - let's just say it's $500.
* Gas - Let's assume 20 miles/galloon and $4 per gallon. $2400 over 6 years.
* Insurance - The most expensive part. 2000 miles/year is nothing, but insurance doesn't work that way. Let's assume a modest $500/year. - $3000
When you add that up it comes to roughly $6k left over. You can look at this two ways.
1. Try to buy a vehicle in the $6k range and assume no-resale value. You're not going to get a great car, but it will be doable.
2. Account for only depreciation. 12k is mostly negligible miles. The biggest lost will be due to aging. That being said, as long as you avoid relatively late-model year, you can purchase basically any mid-upper car and still break even (like an M3).
Plus, in both cases you get the benefit of actually owning a vehicle and not relying on 3rd parties.
----
EDIT: He also mentions using Turo as an alternative for a car. That opens up the possibility of him renting out an own vehicle on Turo. An M3 would likely catch $100/day or more. Let's say $50/rental day gets to his pocket. If he rents a out his M3 just twice/month (e.g. one weekend) and assuming the driver hits the 100 mile/day standard. He'd add only 14.4k more miles (still not a lot) and make an additional $7.2k. That pays for depreciation and leaves him room to ride share while his car is gone.
I like your suggestions here. I've considered buying a car and renting it out like you suggest, but I currently make $100,000/year doing that with the extra room in my SF house, and that's enough work that I can't afford to extra time to do it with a car also. And I think I'll make more money on Airbnb vs. Turo/Getaround. Homes are easier to monetize than cars.
Again, thanks for digging in!
I bring this up because it seems like you ride Uber more for the convenience for your lifestyle and less for the cost factor. You could easily buy an old prius and not worry about most maintenance, deprecation, etc. Most ride shares I've been in have been a Prius or similar. As you said, "I've gotten very addicted to the pleasure of not driving the car that I'm riding in." You don't seem to value driving anywhere near being a passenger. Thus, selling the M3. <-- Not sure why you'd ever be buying an M3 if being driven around in a Prius at modest speeds was your thing. Was it just about the image?
This is correct. None of these "experiences" have any relevance to your average American (or world citizen)
In SF you pay $400/m for a parking spot and wherever you go you likely need a payed spot too!
So $400 x 12 = $4800
$4800 x 6 years = $28,800 just for the parking spot on your block!
Uber per-mile cost is going to be very variable based on the trip costs. Where I live, the minimum cost of an Uber is about $10. My daily 5 mile commute would be $17-24/day for a total distance of 9-12 miles. Cost of a car for that commute is $6.
Obviously, the numbers really depend on how you drive and how much you walk. If you only drive your Honda Accord 2,500 miles a year (my commute), the fixed costs of a car don't amortize as well. If you drive s 15,000 miles a year, you'll line up with GSA. If you drive more, your costs will drop up to about 20% per mile. (Per mile insurance costs drop faster than increased maintenance expense)
The problem is that reality is a bitch, and cars are generally the most economical way to do most things outside of Manhattan, or in some dreamland where you order everything online.
[0]https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/2017-standard-mileage-rates-for...
EDIT: I did all of the other math right except for the annual mileage.
Lots of newer cars are coming out with 7.5k/6 month oil changes (realistically, that will go well beyond 6 months). Even some cars are coming out with 15k/12 month oil changes.
Definitely longer than the 3k/3 month oil changes of the past.
IIRC, the reasoning is mostly about failures of parts/screws involved in the maintenance.
The labor required to tap a seized lug or corroded filter that gets stuck is a multiple of the cost of oil change. There may be temperature related reasons as well, but getting facts about a topic that fuels passions as much as motor oil is difficult.
With some egregious appealing to authority.. I will say that as someone who performs oil changes on our daily driver Honda Element, a 1987 VW camper (when it both had the original engine and the new ford Zetec engine it currently runs on) as well as my 2001 BMW motorcycle, 1970s cub cadet lawn tractor and the Harbor Freight engine I transplanted on to the snowblower...
I have never once encountered a ceased sump plug or stuck oil filter. Ever.
I'm not saying the monkey at Zippy-lubers wont strip a plug because he was busy texting his girlfriend at the same time. But I've pulled parts of engines that hadn't see action for decades. This is not a reason for a 6 month schedule
The only advice I've seen, and oddly enough it's not been mentioned in this thread so tack it onto the list of oil change folklore, is acidic buildup due to oxidization and the timeframe on that is roughly a year.
IMHO 6 months is much too short of a minimum interval for modern oil. 12 months is a much more reasonable interval.
The standard recommendation is every 3000 miles for non-synthetic, which is very very wrong (too frequent) and serves to enrich quick lube shops at the cost of the environment. Folks with newer cars should NOT follow this recommendation [1], but instead refer to their car owner's manual.
[1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/oil-change-truths...
Also, oil changes every 6 months was mainly used as an appropriate time frame in case someone forgot to watch their mileage, with an average of ~14k miles driven in a vehicle a year that averages an oil change every ~7k.
The mileage based change intervals are about two kinds of degredation, shear (loss of viscosity), and Ph (exhaustion of wear additives). Shear may be improved by synthetics but additive depletion is not, although it is uncommon to run oil long enough for that to become critical.
Bottom line is that without the cars, he spends about $390 / month on Uber, and likely that average may have increased given the extreme low summer outlier months. In some areas where parking or insurance is expensive, this could mean large savings. In my area (Austin, TX), the all-in cost of owning a car with insurance is minimally more than this figure. You could lease one brand new, moderately priced car + average petrol costs for about the same amount. You could buy a cheap car and depreciation + maintenance would be even less.
I'll never go without owning a car again. The ability to travel freely and not feel some psychological burden about doing it is more than worth the cost of a car to me.
NOTE: This is based on my experience living in Austin, Seattle, Memphis, and White Plains NY.
This! It's so hard to get over that psychological resistance to seeing a ~$10-15 hit every time you want to go somewhere not too far from your house. Even if I know, rationally, that it is the same or less than I would spend for owning a car, I can't get over.
There's a joy and freedom in owning a car and having to think about the real cost of every mile you drive. Ignorance is bliss I guess?
Source: Me in San Francisco.
Also, SF seems somewhat unique in how bad street parking gets. In, e.g. Toronto, street parking in some areas near downtown is reserved for residents and outer neighbourhoods tend to be spacious enough that households have dedicated parking spaces.
Yes, there are such places. If you are willing to fork out an additional $300 (minimum) for the parking spot.
What area were you getting $150 for?
Ok yeah, in those areas, I can see it happening (but then again, I would never rent in those areas if I have a car...)
I was looking for 2beds mostly around sunset and richmond (basically around areas with good elementary schools). I'm surprised you got such a different experience because when I was searching, many places had parking included, and "important" factors like parking/laundry didn't even seem to affect the price as much as other random reasons (e.g. recent renovations, landlord whims, the real estate agent mediating, perceived "transit convenience", etc)
I spent a significant amount of time looking (I toured well over 50 places), and there's definitely a bunch of full-of-$%&@ people out there trying to rip you off. It's hard to find good deals, but not impossible, and I did get a few who even offered to waive deposit/first month/parking or to negotiate.
explanation, I can drive a car, for fun, to go on adventures, outside of the city, or take a ride at night, but when I'm making a reasonable salary, I'd rather uberx when I commute, and totally focus on work and my mindset, than road safety. Also sometimes I'm very stressed/tired after/before work, so driving is not that safe and safety is priceless.
> But so much of your mental time and energy will be wasted owning the car.
I don't follow. I haven't spent much "mental time and energy" on my car since I decided the on which model to purchase and finished all the paperwork. Getting it serviced is convenient, infrequent, and requires little time on my part. Driving requires attention, but I don't experience a notable gain in productive free time when I use Uber/Lyft.
I do live in a car-friendly area with good parking and nearby gas stations, so YMMV.
If you live or work in a bustling downtown, then car ownership is tougher (but that's one of the reasons I don't work in a city like SF).
As the author said: their other car held its value. If he’d had 2x of that car rather than a BMW, the results would look wildly different. Most folks don’t have that situation.
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:j_-ohh...
Uber actually loses money on each ride. So I don't think the same analysis be hold long term, especially when the company starts to raise its prices.
WSJ recently wrote an article on how it was possible to live in SV for free thanks to the VC fueled economy. They gave example of a guy who financed his Mini Cooper using startup deals, which I think is a better deal than subsidized rides ;)
https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-to-live-in-san-francisco-wi...
Archive link:
This is only true if you're using referral credit. In well established markets (eg San Francisco) very few rides are subsidized, and Uber makes a healthy profit.
I wouldn't be surprised if they are somewhat profitable in established markets but I'm not sure if it's 'healthy'.
Talking about turnover. Any ideas how that's for Uber compared to Lyft et al.?
I had a ratty 2006 liberty. Going through my bank history and tabbing up costs for the previous years I figured if I spent $25 bucks a day on Uber I’d be saving money. (Actually I spend about $18 / day)
Things I took into account were:
- insurance
- gas
- parking tickets, garages and meters
- maintenance (something expensive broke every few months)
- Amex platinum gives a $200 credit / year for Uber
Qualitative-ish things:
- time saved not parking (some days I’d spend 45 minutes trying to find a spot in Venice)
- time saved not forgetting where my car was parked or walking a mile to it
- I do all of my emailing during my rides
- credit card points
I’ll hopefully never own a car again.
Edit: also, zero road rage
Yeah the real benefit is not worry about all the worry, not dealing with all the details. Washing a car sucks. Pumping gas sucks. Changing a flat sucks.
The reason it's more expensive to own a car is because you also own the asset. And sure, cars depreciate ridiculously fast and are horrible stores of value, but your solution is mostly saving money by offloading some risk to another party.
Could I buy another car and it cost me less a month to own, sure.
In reality, I spent about 5k on that crap bucket the last year I had it. What did I sell it for? 5k. Asset it was not.
This is not why there are savings. You are not offloading the risk of owning a car by using uber, you are allowing cars to be used more efficiently. Cars are expensive because they sit unused 95% of the time. The marginal cost of each ride is extremely high. By having one car and one driver do 100x the rides the marginal cost of each ride decreases substantially.
The biggest hurdle ridesharing has in replacing vehicle ownership though is the one off scenarios where having a vehicle is just so valuable in terms of time and cost. We’re in the middle of remodeling our bathroom. We did plenty of planning and sorted out all of the materials and tools we would need and made a giant list. I went to Home Depot and bought just about everything in one trip and loaded it in a truck and drove it home.
As the project has progressed though, there are constantly times where I find I need a tool, or need a different fitting for the plumbing, etc. I just hop in the car and head over to Home Depot quick and grab it. Uber would cost me about $15 round trip for each one of those visits. I haven’t gathered the receipts yet to track how many visits I’ve made but I imagine it would add up pretty considerably. This is just one example. As an expecting father I can only imagine how much of a nightmare loading a car seat in an Uber would be.
I love having the option of a ride share, and I think its fantastic for the opportunity it provides those who many not have access to a car for various reasons. However, I’m not sure ridesharing will ever reach the point of being able to completely replace car ownership for the average American household. I’m confident we’ll hang on to at least one vehicle for the forseable future.
I wrote up my analysis, with a spreadsheet you can plug your own numbers into: https://da-data.blogspot.com/2015/06/why-my-car-cost-more-th...
We chose not to go zero car for many of the reasons you mention (and, in fact, ended up replacing our 2007 ford focus this year). But going from two to one is very freeing.
Loading a car seat into a rideshare isn't bad, btw - the LATCH anchors make it almost routine once you're used to it. Our travel carseat is a little more twitchy, but none of it is very bad.
Expect to see your brake/oil/air filter life cut in half. most of this is due to idling in a fleet-like manner a vehicle with no accomodation for greater-than-average idle times. Example: the crown victoria and F150 fleets sold to government agencies can easily sustain a 3-6 hour idle as theyre equipped with an enlarged intercooler so you dont cook the oil.
Suspension suffers but not appreciably as power steering fluid, which turns to laffy taffy pretty reliably in these types of vehicles. Tire life in some cases is notably shorter due to the prevalence of sidewall damage from mediocre drivers dragging or hopping curbs. Fleet vehicles are equipped with idler/pitman assemblies which, again, are cheaper to repair and service than the more complex and expensive rack-and-pinion...which also isnt as durable for fleetlike operations.
service times are also longer...so theres lost revenue. example: an AC service on a Lexus takes damned near 4 hours (I'd want the car for the day.) Service on a lincoln towncar? I might not even have to put the keys in the ignition. Theres actually a factory tool you can order from Mexico that will do it in about 11 minutes.
TL;DR: if you're driving for one of these taxi services, buy a fleet vehicle used or new.
Since he’s paying Uber with after-tax non-deductible dollars, it’s actually more like earning ($28.50 / .6) = $47.50 per hour.
That having been said, in terms of 'car hacking' he should be able to do much better if he just bought a cheaper but reliable car. He never owned the car for status purposes, his previous choice of car seems like a bad benchmark to compare Uber to. 8k depreciation is just crazy, might as well just lease at that point or buy a small, cheap japanese car, like a Honda Civic or something. Maintenance is a few hundred bucks, you can buy em for two years worth of his BMW depreciation, pretty fuel efficient. I think ridesharing is great, but you shouldn't compare it to a newly bought $80k BMW benchmark imo.
That's around $700 a year, and the damn thing has 165,000 miles. Still starts, drives, no rust. Should easily be able to pull 200,000 miles off of it (or another 2 years). I think the car today is still worth a ~$1k - $2k.
Also, 165 k miles and you never had to change the timing belt, break pads etc? Does the 5 k$ include all those costs?
According to my mint, on average I spend $500 / year on insurance (two cars) and gas is $1000 / year. I also get things like freedom to drive cross country (which I've done) or go to national parks. Which adds value.
Take all that and its still what:
$8k + $4k + $10k + $5k = $27k
For 8 years... And I gurantee I travel more than 686 rides, as I drive pretty much 365 days a year. Plus it has some value.
In many cases, as with most things, convenience comes at a premium. That's what ride sharing is. I use it too when traveling, but the car is way cheaper long term.
Y go the long route we can simply stay in the current or previous state and use it like a taxi rarely wen needed.
https://therideshareguy.com/uber-is-ripping-off-frequent-rid...
Does depreciation even matter. Most people don’t sell their cars.
Maybe people should buy cheaper cars.
My brother was a panel beater and most of his friends mechanics, when growing up I was always told the worst car you could buy was a BMW, they were for people who like to think they have money, but more often than not those people are paying off the car, but it costs more to maintain the car than it does to buy it.
Personally if I had the money for a BMW, there's plenty of other cars that are nicer, better performing, and better handling, than a BMW. But I would rather just buy a Toyota and drive it till i died. Those things are cheap and last forever.
Car maintenance isn't that scary if you have a steady income and buy something rational (90s japanese instead of 2000s range rover)
I have a '05 Tundra and just had to replace the entire ABS system, so while it was being worked on also did all of the belts, water pump, etc... and came in ~4k. There shouldn't be any maintenance except oil and maybe tires for the next 2-4 years.
Yes, I guess it's a very complicated car with loads of electronics that can go wrong, and when they do go wrong it's expensive. But it's not a far fetched idea that my mum would be better off with getting a brand new car which doesn't suffer from random issues where you have to get the car towed to the garage.
You also have to be physically strong and able to get to lug nuts and other rusted connections loose. I highly doubt most women can take tires off and lift them and put them back on, especially for SUV.
I think oil and air filter changes can be done by most though, especially if they get a fumoto valve. I would hesitate to recommend brake jobs for most people though.
This is either sexist, ignorant, or both. I put myself through school working as a mechanic, and very few jobs require more strength than the average 10 year old girl has. That is the entire point of tools, they provide adequate leverage.
Additionally, it seems sexist to single out women, what about older men? I've certainly met plenty of women physically stronger than me, and most healthy adults should be able to lift even a heavy 60lb tire the few inches necessary to mount it. Unless you are installing a transmission, if you are putting in significant physical effort then you are using the wrong tool or technique. For instance, for the other commenters that mentioned difficult lug nuts- Go to harbor freight and purchase a 1/2" breaker bar, at least 18" long but preferably 24", along with a socket to fit your lug nuts. To crack the lug nuts, use your body weight and bounce on one foot. Even if the shop that installed them didn't over-torque the nuts, road grit and salt can make them very tight. Carry that tool instead of the provided wrench, it is far easier and safer, and shouldn't cost more than 25$.
Some women are stronger than others, some aren't. But in my experience, women will probably have problems getting a lug nut off that has been tightened too tight with an air tool and/or is rusted. I personally have had problems getting them off, even with a breaker bar, and I wouldn't expect everyone with a car to go out and buy a breaker bar either.
The meat of my comment was that it might be reasonable to expect a large portion of the population to not be able to do what many think are simple routine car repairs, such as brake jobs, and I attempted to prove it by illustrating an example.
Of course I already have nearly all the tools (except every car needs some special tool, so add $15 one time).
Some shops do it, but you shouldn't go to them.
All it takes is a couple feet to move the torque required into the lower end of human capability.
But it still happens. Having a means of greater torque gets past that failure condition and reduces the work burden.
And that's a net good. Older people, young, small, women with nails, guys who may not be very strong, someone hurt or sick all see a much improved task, well in bounds for them.
This is precisely why I brought all my kids up knowing these things. Same for anyone I've helped. I'll leave it with them and just go get another lever. cheap.
Better to be equipped to get this done than be stuck, merely understanding one should not be, but is anyway.
A small extension of this thinking means equipping the vehicle with common sense, useful tools. BMW does this from the factory. Most go unused, but its ultra cheap insurance. May actually end up applying to another vehicle. All good.
It really doesn't take much to equip a vehicle for trouble cases. Anyone who does is likely to get a nice return on that modest investment in skill and gear at some point in their lives. This is true even when their skills are somehow lacking, or they become physically unable somehow.
Getting help means people, and it often means tools. Having both is again, cheap insurance.
Talking about a damaged fastener on your way from the trouble incident is a great problem to have when compared to the side of a road.
The fastener problem is real too, but not nearly the potential safety hazard as the damage to the brakes.
And, given they must do that work, having the means to complete it makes all the sense in the world.
Nobody has to tighten anything that way. I've never shown, nor recommended people do. It's all about having the means to change a tire, should that need arise. And that means removing the fasteners.
So, I'll tell you what. I'll continue carrying a lever, and will continue to not be stuck somewhere ugly, and you do whatever you want.
Everyone can and should express concern when the job is done poorly.
Nobody should be stuck because it was done poorly, unless they want to be, and I for sure don't. Nor does anyone I know.
I'm getting older. Can do it. Just don't want to. May not be able one day. There is that too.
Serious question. When I raised my kids, boys and girls, all of them changed tires, among other basic car things. And yes, doing an SUV was part of that.
There is skill needed to avoid the most painful lift, but it's not hard to obtain.
I'm 50. Would not think twice about a tire change on any vehicle I drive.
Are we just not teaching people these things anymore?
A car's tire, I can agree that if the lugs are not improperly tightened too much, anyone should be able to do it. But for a full SUV, a 17"+ tire is a bit much to ask a petite woman to handle in my opinion.
And it's not an ask on my part. I have shown how it can be done, and whether she does it isn't material. Worst case, she can instruct someone who has strength.
In terms of lease options, if all the maintenance / repairs are covered then, again, it kinda makes sense, right? You're effectively paying a bit more each month, but you know what you're in for and there's no chance of a massive unknown catastrophic failure breaking the bank.
It's all well and good saying that car maintenance isn't scary, but as the owner of car that's started smoking — it's not much fun taking it to 5 mechanics, all of whom haven't managed to diagnose the issue.
It's the same reason people have insurance.
You're not necessarily overpaying on leasing. It's just a math problem where a few of the variables (base MF, residual) are static, a few are easily negotiated (cap cost), and a few are less easily negotiated (dealer MF mark up).
I bought a 1996 Mercedes-Benz E-class last year, it was 21 years old then. It cost me about 2300€ (with a set of winter tires), I did about 15k kilometers in it so far. Pretty much the only servicing I do on it is the non-critical stuff: sunroof, parking sensors etc, but aside of the „vanity stuff” it pretty much runs flawlessly for me. May just be survivor bias of course, but in any case if you don't need 100% reliability 24/7 (in which case you can always take an uber :)) I think it's a really viable choice. Plus buying a used car is afaik more environment friendly than buying a brand new Tesla or Prius or whatever.
Because I can finance it at an interest rate of something like 2.6%. That's stupid cheap.
When the money is nearly free (one of my cars still has a loan at 1.9%), cash is more valuable to me.
Bought a £8k 6 year old car, sold it for £2.5k after it broke and wanted £2k for repairs 6 years later. So £1k/year. Current car costs £0 in tax, £0.02 p/mile, £360 insurance per year
So when I see the price including depreciation it seems odd that people change cars so often they worry about resale value.
I would either buy new and drive it into the ground or buy second hand.
[1]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/581017/average-length-of...
Obviously there are exceptions, but the used car market is much larger than the new car market so most are selling.
A rule of thumb that I use is that the value of the car halves every fourth year. So if I buy a car for $20 000 I can count on a monthly cost of $208 for the deprecation the first four years, that exceeds all other costs of ownership in my case.
NB: Can't read the site or full article - not sure if it is the 'HN Hug of Death' but it is timing out for me.
[Citation needed]
If I buy a washing machine for $600, and it breaks after 5 years, I can consider that machine to have cost me $120 a year, even if I never sell it.
Even if you drive and pay for the car payment and insurance at a very cheap rate of 200/month for both, there's gas and maintenance which should be at least another 50-100 per month.
But if you're a drinker even casually or you go out just on weekends you will have to uber and leave the car and incur uber costs regardless. After work Happy hour? drink or two at the end of office day? Can't drive.
Point is if you are a drinker for whatever reason there's huge perks to uber and not having a car. Also tax wise uber being used as transportation versus a vehicle where commuting is not deductible(starts from place of work not to as contractor). Overall the tax write offs and being able to drink is a huge perk should your lifestyle be similar of course.
I get the train places and taxis the other end (Uber if the city allows).
I’ll admit a few times a year I think it would be nice to drive and I intend to take my test again one day but It’s down list of stuff do with learn the banjo and work on my Haskell
In the UK just outside London Uber's quotes last Friday and Saturday night were 50%-100% hire then other competitors.
E.g. in my area sometimes it's much cheaper than its competitors (up to 20% difference) and MUCH cheaper than a standard call taxi (up to 50% difference), sometimes it's a double from competitors prices. You just have to catch the right moment. I even have an application for my local region which estimates prices in different services right now and suggests the cheapest option.
Abroad (in countries like India) Uber (or similar services, e.g. Ola) is the easiest way to get an honest price without heavy bargain (which is also time consuming) and complicated explanations where you wanna get.
but what if he factored in riding a bicycle when it isn't raining (into work) and using Uber on days when it's raining in the mornings?
even a weak rider can save money by getting a week pass when their legs are sore.
I'm assuming there's a week based pass in your area.
Because the set of things that are wrong is a subset of the things that are illegal.
Uber also has a documented history of doing actual illegal things. It even went so far as to build technology specifically to avoid law enforcement authorities:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/03/technology/uber-greyball-...