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Comment by lopmotr | Hacker News Reader

You really shouldn't blame the victim just because you've been reading more news stories than him. It's the sort of thing I might have done when I was younger. I grew up trusting authorities and them always being reasonable and I would never have imagined Germany was such a bizarrely brutal place. People often joke with the workers they have to interact with. I've done that before. It's human nature.

I used to have a nazi symbol on my car just to rile people up. Once a neighbor called the police who were completely reasonable and asked me to please not park so close to his house because it's making him angry.

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> I used to have a nazi symbol on my car just to rile people up.

No healthy person does this "just to rile people up."

This is profoundly fucked behavior, and in a sane society it does, and should, lead to ostracizing. Actions have consequences.

If you have a whole class of people who have every hour of the day to nanny and harass other people - to rile them up- with any means possible, seems like a good cause.

Bonus Points if you put a Hammer and Sickle right next to them. Creepy Thought-controll-freaks of all nations united- in outrage. My man.

Hammer and Sickle gets you into serious trouble in much of East Europe, particularly in Poland and the Czech Republic.

I’ve seen people (fellow foreigners) wearing hammer and sickle on tshirts in czech and it didn’t seem to cause any trouble. I’m sure people quietly thought “what an idiot” but nobody actually did anything. Weirdly a friend of a friend who was a member of the local football ultras threatened to kick the shit out of a someone who was wearing that iconic Che-Guevara-face t-shirt ... but nothing happened (and that’s probably one of the more violent people).

In all fairness, you need to be a particular brand of idiot to show communist glorification on your clothing in the country that was subject to the violent break of the liberalization that we now know as Prague Spring. Anyone who has read anything about Czechia knows about that.

I would expect czech police there to be more "nah, above my paygrade" when it comes to foreigners than German customs officers.

Oh I don't disagree - when wearing this sorta stuff you're at best ignorant and at worst trying to be provocative (god knows why you'd want to). The cases I saw were mostly the dumb Threadless "Communist Party" t-shirt which is definitely in the latter camp.

And you're right, the police would likely just roll their eyes and move on. I think anything nazi-related is taken much more seriously in Germany than anything socialist/communist related is here (there's even still an actual communist party which iirc gets regular single-digit share of electoral votes).

Yes they do. The students of the university I was at were always doing offensive things trying to provoke reactions. Like a column about "Underage celebrities I'd go to jail for" or drawing a giant penis on the carpark. It's normal student culture where I'm from.

At absolute best, it's tasteless, and certainly grounds for social exclusion, but criminalizing and especially pathologizing mildly anti-social behavior is profoundly immoral, reckless, and inhumane.

Nazism and its asides are not merely mildly antisocial behavior. Nazism is a pathology, it is the declaration of the intent to commit violence, and repping Nazi symbols makes you a goddamn Nazi. I believe that communities and societies have the right and the duty to defend themselves against clearly communicated threats of violence. Germany and countries with similar antifascist and anti-Nazi legal strictures have the right of it.

Nah, this is wrong. Putting a Nazi symbol on your car with the intent to piss people off is a juvenile provocation and in no way requires that the perpetrator actually harbor a secret desire to bring about the extermination of the untermenschen.

Completely relinquishing the ability to judge things on their actual context in favor of the unthinking punitive application of absolutist principles is the beating heart of every anti-human ideology.

You're certainly entitled to that opinion. But your assertion is not convincing. This rather is my bag; studying neofascists and their propaganda tactics is a rather in-depth hobby of mine. And the way they rely upon the plausible deniability of "actual context" is why I am happy to disregard it. Literally any other nonfascist ideology, yes, I agree. Not Nazis, not fascists. They're autoimmune disorders and societies and communities erring on caution with and specifically with fascists won't keep me up at night.

Putting Nazi shit on things you own is a sign of tribal identity and that tribe exists to break our norms and kill us once they have the chance. On one's own head be it. This may catch up some dipshits who want to offend people. But...y'know? That's OK. Don't be that dipshit. Don't play with Nazi shit.

Are you serious? I am from Switzerland and live in Germany for 10 years, even in Switzerland I would not dare to say this to an officer. At worst they will take it as a personal offence, like I'd imply they are like the Gestapo and at best they'll suspect that I am on drugs or mentally handicapped.

> You really shouldn't blame the victim

Point is, he's not a victim, he's a criminal and has received his well-deserved punishment.

> you've been reading more news stories than him.

When you go to another country, it is your responsibility to follow their laws. Ignorantia legis non excusat.

>I grew up trusting authorities and them always being reasonable and I would never have imagined Germany was such a bizarrely brutal place.

"Brutal". In all fairness, compared to US prisons, German prisons must feel like holiday resorts... As a German citizen, I trust my authorities to uphold the laws.

> I used to have a nazi symbol on my car just to rile people up.

No. You had Nazi symbolism on your car because you are likely someone who agrees with the ideology. This also reflects in the kind of people you hang around with.

> Once a neighbor called the police who were completely reasonable and asked me to please not park so close to his house because it's making him angry.

And in Germany, you would have gotten jail time (§ 86a StGB), have your car confiscated and likely destroyed, and probably would have lost your driving license because you have demonstrated that you lack the adequate character to safely operate a vehicle.

And I would have been ok with that.

You obviously know that it's a crime in Germany. The parent's friend obviously didn't.

Are you actually in support of rule of law no matter what, or is it just this law you like? For example, are you OK with China executing Falun Gong members? Are you OK with ISIS killing gay people (it's the law of Islam!)? Are you OK with slavery as long as it's legal? Or are you just angry about Nazis especially out of all the other horrible groups in history for some reason? What about the Romans? They were pretty brutal - do you want to destroy the property of people who write roman numerals and write Latin phrases on things? Your extreme reaction doesn't make sense to me.

> lack the adequate character to safely operate a vehicle

It has nothing to do with safety. I grew up playing Wolfenstein 3D and watching the History channel. Nazi symbols were completely normal and everywhere. It was in no sense a crime or an indication that you're so mentally ill that you're going to crash your car.

> No. You had Nazi symbolism on your car because you are likely someone who agrees with the ideology. This also reflects in the kind of people you hang around with.

Please don't make personal judgments. I explained my reason.

When you go to another country, you follow the law there. If you break it, expect punishment.

That doesn't mean the law is okay but the country is fully free to punish you as they see fit.

> Nazi symbols were completely normal and everywhere.

Not here. Outside of certain exceptions, don't go waving around Nazi symbols in the country that to this day regrets this part of history.

>"I grew up playing Wolfenstein 3D and watching the History channel. Nazi symbols were completely normal and everywhere."

You obviously should have paid a lot more attention, then.

Can it with the whataboutism, it's not helping you.

If you visit a country, you respect its laws and customs. You don't go around breaking them because you disagree with them. Leave it to the residents of that country to change their laws if needed, don't be an invading asshole.

I'm sure he didn't know that law. That seems to be lost on everyone in this thread. It would be a complete surprise to someone who didn't see Nazis as a real personal terrible anger-shame-inducing thing and who comes from a country with freedom of speech.

> I'm sure he didn't know that law.

Let me speak it out for you again:

It doesn't matter. Ignorance does not protect against punishment.

Ignorance is not an excuse. Would you find it acceptable to go "heil Hitler!" at random people? I hope you don't.

Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences.

Your friend must have been completely and utterly ignorant of fundamental history. That's not something to be proud of.

You're culturally oblivious. Stop being so insulting. I wasn't rude to anybody but I'm suddenly facing a barrage of abuse. I get it that Germans have a penchant for imprisoning people because they're insulted. But the rest of us don't have that luxury. Just stop being an asshole to people you talk to.

I wasn't using whataboutism. I was showing an inconsistency in the commenter's general claim. Do you also really believe gays are being assholes if they have sex in Saudi Arabia? That they should show respect to the culture that has a deep shame about homosexuals?

I'm being culturally ignorant? That's rich. Is it US culture to just randomly insult everyone?

>"Do you also really believe gays are being assholes if they have sex in Saudi Arabia? That they should show respect to the culture that has a deep shame about homosexuals?"

More whataboutism. No, I don't think they're assholes, I think they're idiots. Going to a notoriously anti-gay country, with a death penalty for homosexuality, and then completely flouting those laws? Yeah, that's a really bad idea.

That's not what whataboutism means. It means A criticizes B so B responds by criticizing A for a comparable thing.

Here, I'm trying to tease out the meaning from you and a grandparent's posts that seem to ridicule anyone breaking any law, no matter how unjust the law might be. Your particular disrespect seems to be focused on foreigners visiting a country, which seems kind of arbitrary but you've done such a poor job explaining what's behind your judgments that I don't think there's much there besides the desire for violence against anyone who, even unknowingly, offends you. You've also been offensive to me in this thread (feeling free to because I don't have the power to punish you?) and say that you would insult the victims of anti-gay laws. It's clear now that you're a hate filled person so I don't want to know what you really mean anymore.

We've now wandered way too far off from the original topic.

The simple truth is, if you go visit a country, you do a bit of preparation before you go. That includes any local laws and customs that may differ from those in your home country, in order to avoid trouble.

You wouldn't try to bring a pocket knife on a flight, would you? Like me, you probably disagree with the security theater that has been put in place, but that does not mean you get to plead innocence because of ignorance, or because you disagree with the rules.

Once again: ignorance does not confer immunity from the law, no matter how unjust the law is.

I'm not saying ignorance is an excuse for breaking the law. If you find yourself repeating a claim, you're probably not understanding the other person. I'm saying the law in Germany is unjust. I have sympathy for the person who was locked up for 3 months for making a friendly joke. I would also have sympathy for the mother of a tree cutter who was killed because he didn't prepare two escape routes like he should have according to best practice. I wouldn't tell her "your son was stupid, it's no wonder he's dead when he's so disrespectful of the rules." That's something you might try to scare somebody with before he does something dangerous, but not mock them for after they suffer the consequences.

>"I'm saying the law in Germany is unjust"

That doesn't matter in this context. When you visit a country, you respect their laws, no matter how unjust they may be.

However, you will find very few people who would agree with you that it is unjust for someone to face consequences for directly and provocatively insulting a policeman with his country's greatest shame in recorded history.

>"locked up for 3 months for making a friendly joke"

Shouting "heil Hitler!" at a German -- especially if it's an authority figure -- is not "a friendly joke". It's a grave insult. If you do not understand why that is, I would suggest you spend a little time researching 20th century history.

Your example with the tree cutter is false equivalence. In his case, it would be a tragedy, which could have been prevented through the use of specialized knowledge. Maybe he didn't know, maybe he was forgetful, maybe he was simply negligent.

If you wanted to make the cases more equivalent, a better example would if he climbed to the top of a very tall tree, and then sawed over the branch he was sitting on. Clearly stupid and with absolutely no common sense.

You said this:

> I used to have a nazi symbol on my car just to rile people up

You can't then complain that people get riled up. It was your intention to provoke them; they were provoked; and now you suffer the consequences for provoking them.

If you don't wish to suffer those consequences you have the freedom to not behave like a fucking idiot.

It's like going to the US and saying to the first black customs officer you see something along the lines of "So how's slavery treating ya?"/"Boy, get my luggage and find me a car!".

This is universally known as insensitive behaviour and no amount of "muh free speech" is gonna save you from being charged with a hate crime.

When you go to a country, at the very least make the effort not to offend officials with the worst part of that country's history. Otherwise you're not just gonna be seen as a total (criminal) twat but also a lazy one at that.

Racist comments aren't hate crimes in the US. It's violence that is. You won't be charged with anything.

You subscribe to the might-makes-right mindset by demanding respect for people who have the power to punish you. That's practical, but not morally very solid since it implies less politeness to weaker people.

Some would argue the 30 years war was worse than the Nazis. It killed more people than the holocaust, and at a time when the population was much smaller.

I totally oppose physical violence against people for saying insults. That's terrible to me. For exactly this reason - innocent people not trying to hurt anybody end up getting punished because they're misunderstood. The swastika really doesn't mean the same thing to people everywhere in the world. Not everyone shares the Germans' violent anger at people who remind them of their past.

No, I subscribe to the concept of "basic decency", I would not even say that phrase to a dying beggar lying in the streets.

But still fuck you for comparing an instance of senseless mass-murder/genocide with a religious war spanning 30 years and involving most of central europe ~400 years ago, at a time where the slightest wound may have condemned one to die, notwithstanding the quite "good" chance to starve or die from plague as back then hygiene wasn't really that important to the people.

"And in Germany, you would have gotten jail time (§ 86a StGB), have your car confiscated and likely destroyed, and probably would have lost your driving license because you have demonstrated that you lack the adequate character to safely operate a vehicle.

And I would have been ok with that."

And no german would see the irony in this...

German laws and authorities have very little tolerance for Nazis, for damn good reason.

No, this was the ironic part: "As a German citizen, I trust my authorities to uphold the laws."

We all do - we just watch very carefully when those laws are being written down.

This is something we are learning in the UK as sweeping powers "necessary to implement Brexit" are getting pushed through Parliament. Only so very principled MPs are preventing really sweeping executive powers being granted - they are referred to as Henry VIII laws to give an idea how retrograde we are getting

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