Move deliberately, fix things: How Coinbase is building a cryptocurrency empire
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The most decentralised is something like localbitcoins, but for most people its too much hassle. It's like selling a second hand car type process (which most people hate) just to get cash to spend. Therefore a centralised bank it much more preferable.
1. Pay employee in Venezuelan bolívar 2. Bolívar inflates to the point where a month's salary gets you a chicken bone 3. Employee __________
I think of it this way especially as Fiat means 'by decree' or something like that.
It is very hard to be part of the traditional banks network. We can debate if it is better that there is much higher cost to entering but overall if the backbone is open then it should help innovation.
2. There's no one fixed "mantra" of cryptocurrency. As you point out yourself, there's some people who see BTC as a store of value first and optimize for that, and I'm sure you're aware that that's at least not an uncontroversial decision. Different people have different opinions about a ton of different things like monetary supply policy, the importance of censorship-resistance, immutability, non-currency use-cases, etc.
E.g. in my opinion most people don't want irrevocable untraceable transactions from their account as that increases fraud risk and (in their particular case) doesn't bring much benefit. Some do benefit from that, but it's a minority in the general population (but a large portion of early cryptocurrency adopters). Most people actually want something like a credit card payment that has a clear benefactor and the ability to recall the payment in case of fraud or other dispute. In other cases, the value is so low people are not willing to "pay" even very low price of convenience to gain them.
There are some people (and locations!) where there is large motivation to avoid various capital controls and possibility of government control, but for most people in first world countries it's preferable to have their money in the reach of local legal system rather than outside, as they'd expect (and need!) the legal system to protect them in case of disputes and have a low risk of it working against them. Of course there are all kinds of exceptions where people might desire a way to get undeclared money (say, to avoid making child support payments) but that's usually a sufficiently large motivation only if you want to defraud someone and most people actually are honest and pay what they're due.
Also, there are all kinds of trivial reasons why you'd want an institution to handle the trade - e.g. if you're investing, you'd need proper documentation for the crypto purchase so that it'd be tax deductible for the crypto sale, otherwise the whole sale could be treated as taxable income.
However, most centralized solutions that provide nearly instant transfers focus on one market (say, Eurozone or USA) and so they're not global - so there's no single "they" that could provide these with the caveat of higher risk, and it's a flaw of decentralization of international banking; the delays for worldwide transfers are caused by lack of a centralized solution neccessitating multiple bilateral transfers between unrelated institutions. Where a centralized system exists (e.g. Eurozone Target2 system), customers can have nearly instant payments within that system if you're willing to pay for that.
You’re commenting on this thread about Coinbase, one of the largest cryptocurrency exchanges. Seems very centralised.
I actually wonder (and I’m sure someone’s done the math), what would be the transaction cost and confirmation times of the Bitcoin network if it approached the number of transactions as the Mastercars or Visa networks?
I don't care if he takes a cut, I don't care if he slows down processing, but I care as soon as he starts saying "my bank doesn't allow your kind of business".
Ideology aside, as a random human being, why would I care about that? I need to buy bread at the bakery, I can use cash, my "centralized" Visa or my Bitcoin wallet, all other things being equal what difference does decentralization make?
And if it's solely about principles then I have bad news.
I think most people would agree that ideologically speaking if you value privacy it makes more sense to use Duckduckgo rather than Google search, yet even though DDG now offers a quality of service comparable to the big G it still remains extremely confidential. The friction to get from one service to the other is like 3 clicks in your browser's UI, yet most people don't care.
If 99% of people can't be bothered to ditch Google search in favor of something else even though there's very little friction, how can you ever hope to convince people to switch from Visa to a bitcoin wallet which is significantly less convenient and makes it easy to irrevocably lose your money? That's a pipe dream IMO.
This is all on top of the initial users, Usenet-style "cryptoanarchists" who actually got the whole network running in the first place, but who are now a tiny minority of actual users, though perhaps a majority of the people who have already made a fortune on this stuff, and thus are now leading investment in the space. In a way, these are just speculators who bought early for reasons other than money (like for example, that it seemed like a cool conceit from a William Gibson novel).
The model example for me was someone in the U.S. sending money to their grandmother in Iran. Although perhaps that’s become legal again now.
If you really just mean "remittance payments to OFAC-listed countries", then I can't imagine that's a big use case at all, especially since the first world, the source of most of these remittances, has made it pretty difficult to turn cash or legally-earned in-my-bank-because-i-cashed-my-paycheck money into crypto without a paper trail.
Also, the OFAC countries are just not the most popular places to send remittances from the west, the reason being that its just really hard to do so. This in turn reduces incentive for otherwise remittance-sending immigrants from those countries to go to the West, which in turn lowers demand for the service. If the US were to suddenly put Mexico on the OFAC list (not unthinkable given the current administration), there would be riots in the streets in both countries, because the scale of these payments mean that large fractions of both economies are built on the flow of this money (in Mexico), and the labor it motivates (in the US).
It's important to clarify that "securities fraud" here refers to what statutes refer to as securities fraud, and not any actual fraud involving securities.
Any sale of a non-registered security is termed "securities fraud" by the Securities Act, even if the sale involves zero fraud. The term, as used in the statutory context, is a misnomer, and an Orwellian attempt at misleading the public into believing there was a victim in the transaction.
Generally libertarians like the cypherpunks do not object to laws against real fraud. It's the victimless crimes like prostitution, trade in unregistered securities, drugs, etc that they believe should be free of prohibition.
Anyway, to your point, there are legal industries where traditional financial players cannot operate, like the legal cannabis industry, due to everything from corporate policies being slow to react to the change in laws, to reputational risk, to non-binding but still influential guidances and warnings from regulatory agencies (e.g. Operation Chokepoint). These also might be/become natural sources of demand for cryptocurrency.
I’ve tried to switch to DDG a couple of times and I use it as the default search engine on my cellphone now but it’s not yet as good as Google is for easily finding exactly what I want and I doubt it will ever be because it is thanks to the very thing I don’t like about Google — the amount of things they know about their users — that Google are able to give the results that their users are looking for.
I bought a book called Relevant Search because I think that it might be possible to build a very good search engine for oneself but I have not yet had time to even start reading that book so.
I think switching to DDG is worth it even if you only lower your usage to a certain degree. It means no company has your full profile anymore.
It's the purest form of expressed preference - if people systematically give up A to gain B, then it's clear that they actually don't desire A that much and that they actually do desire B, no matter what they might say.
The same applies to Coinbase - all this implies that for many, many users decentralization is not a feature that's desirable enough to matter, that it's benefits are not noticable and not important enough to make it a serious factor in making their decisions; whatever "the decentralization vision" is, it's not relevant enough so that they'd be willing to give up other benefits to gain these of decentralization.
The qualifier about perfect information and comprehension is legit, but given that, if you'd choose decentralization only if the cost and other circumstances are equivalent then that's a sign that decentralization is worth zero.
Sure. But why are alternatives so scarce or difficult?
Because federal and state governments are going out of their way to attack any non-banklike means of converting fiat to cryptocurrency. From heavy regulation (see: New York) to arbitrary abuse of unrelated regulation in form of police action (localbitcoin sellers atttacked and jailed under KYC). This funnels people into players that are willing to bend over for the establishment like Coinbase.
However, for the majority of people, obeying local laws (including AML/KYC regulations) is simply a part of their normal not-being-a-criminal life, not "bending over for the establishment"; they don't need anonymity and payment-censorship resistance and have no problem if their service provider complies with the law, so if the main advantage for some means of converting fiat to cryptocurrency is simply avoiding these regulations, then that provides no added value (and possibly negative value i.e. risk) to them, and they would reasonably not choose that.
There could be all kinds of non-banklike decentralized means of converting fiat to cryptocurrency, but there's some self-segmentation - if some seller would be obeying AML, KYC and IRS cash reporting regulations, then they might as well be banklike, since they'll be competing with banklike institutions, and if not, then yeah, that's a crime and would naturally be attacked by governments and avoided by a large portion of honest citizens. There are certain niche markets for whom it's important to be beyond the reach of the law, but that's not a need for most people, for most people even a decentralized solution would have to obey all the relevant KYC and other laws if they'd be comfortable in using it. A professional buyer/seller on localbitcoin is very much comparable to a smaller version of Coinbase with less reputation and thus needs to offer some advantage so people would pick them instead of Coinbase, and I'm struggling to see what that advantage would be other than evasion of regulations. It's clear that decentralization can help with that, but can it help with something else, something that a law-abiding consumer cares about?
One can argue about the details of regulation and licencing, but even if they would be relaxed to facilitate operation of small decentralized players, in any case the "above board" market will have to ensure that KYC (anti-anonymity), AML (filtering) and tax reporting for any large volumes, that is not negotiable; and the "underground" market that avoids that won't be attractive to most customers because of the risks involved by, as you say, governments attacking it and jailing operators.
I can understand that there are multiple scenarios where a decentralized cryptocurrency has some advantages for a direct end-user, and some market failures where customers can't get appropriate payment services; however for the "institution-to-institution" backbone I see no advantages whatsoever, the settlement channels which financial institutions can use are quite good and fit the needs of these institutions much better than (for example) Bitcoin; the interbank settlement systems are fast, cheap, reliable, secure, already implemented and tested, work on a large scale and they don't really have a trust issue with their operators.
There are many flaws in worldwide payment systems available to customers, but the backbone between institutions is not one of them.
To my understanding this is something that can be covered by common standards on message formats that businesses can send to banks (the same format for many banks, integrated in, say, accounting software) to initiate payments, and by common standards for electronic account transaction information and a legal requirement to ensure that all banks would provide that interoperability. And getting that doesn't need decentralization but rather a legal/systematic intervention like SEPA was done in Eurozone.
Direct participation in payment systems for non-banks is also an option that already exists, but not widely used because of the costs involved, it's cheaper to just go through a bank - if you don't have huge volumes any bank can give you a quote that's lower than the cost of maintaining the service directly, and the businesses that do have huge volumes (e.g. the major auto manufacturers) generally have established their own bank subsidiaries.
> this is something that can be covered by common standards
Theoretically, but this has been a failure since forever. I've been moving countries a lot in my life and the hassle is real. Transferwise makes things easier but it's recent, slow and still is a middle-man you could get rid of with cryptocurrencies. With cryptocurrencies a simple transaction would suffice.
> Direct participation in payment systems for non-banks is also an option that already exists
I was not aware of this. I doubt it's realistic though, whereas right now I can (and do) send money to people via cryptocurrencies without a need for a bank.
I think the reason I'm getting downvoted on these posts is that people don't realize how banks interaction and money transfers are broken as soon as you travel and move in the world. Here in the UK banking is really easy thanks to Monzo and Revolut, but go abroad and it already becomes a mess. More and more people are going to have these problems as world travel becomes more efficient and cheaper.
However, I'd wager that it still counts as a small niche for payments - even if we take all expatriates into account (though those who have relocated for years are essentially part of the local market), that is estimated to be something like 50-60 million people worldwide, so less than 1% of individuals (it's worth noting that businesses of various sizes, not individuals, make up most of payments) so experience and needs of people who move around the world (beyond short-term business and tourism) are unusual and do not reflect the needs of the mainstream market. Even if extended travel becomes much more popular (which is not a given, there is a trend in restricting migration), it might go from 1% to 2% of population and still not affect the larger trends.
They are not. It takes more time and electricity to confirm a BTC transaction, therefore it's slower and more costly.
Those shaky foundations mean that the actual winners may be other fintech companies like Revolut, Stripe or TransferWise who are not distracted as much by the whole crypto mania.
Various DAG mainnets are launching or have launched and are operational today.
Ethereum will likely operate on proof of stake within two years.
I love that it implies that you know where you are going and making steady progress towards that. It also subtly acknowledges that you are building on the work of others, and that bugs happen. It's OK, but fix 'em when you find 'em.
An attitude that would never past muster on HN except in regards to this subject
The dollar's value derives, in great part, from the existence of the US military. It uses far more energy per year than Bitcoin does.
Bitcoin's energy usage seems a better deal. I doubt anyone would ever launch a war funded on Bitcoin.
However, since the vast majority of people and institutions do have some pre-existing trust relationships, Bitcoin doesn't bring that much to the table, we already had the technology to wire money worldwide.
We can't do that with classical banking.
I'm my own agent and an international network is the bank. Classical banking can't compete with that in the long run though I'm sure they'll still be of use.
I'm sure that there are multiple niche use cases where being your own agent has some benefits and it will certainly be of some use, but it seems that for the mainstream usage it does not, and there are certainly all kinds of practical advantages for some centralization and delegation of tasks to another agent, so it seems quite plausible to me that the classical banking might dominate the majority of transactions forever.
Why do you think that? You can store a lot of bitcoins on a single sheet of paper (private keys for wallets) so stealing it is a lot easier than precious metals. If any large nation ever really starts disliking BTC they'll just launch targeted operations to get hold of a large share of Bitcoins and destabilise the system. Similar to earlier times where enemy states printed fake money to destabilise monetary systems, bitcoin makes it easier because you don't need to move physical assets.
And...
Genuine economic activity in crypto-currencies represents roughly %0.00000000000000000000001 of the economic activity transacted in dollars. How much energy would be required for crypto-currencies in a one to one comparison?
Let's not forget the US military may in fact serve some other functions as well.
There are also serious technical flaws, but I think there's a good chance those can be addressed.
Banks now: "lol jk. No Bitcoin for you."
1. https://blog.coinbase.com/joint-statement-from-visa-and-worl...