Evidence that drinking baking soda can promote an anti-inflammatory environment | Hacker News Reader

Evidence that drinking baking soda can promote an anti-inflammatory environment

jagwire.augusta.edu

206 pointspera178 comments

Not directly related to creating an "anti-inflammatory environment," but I've suffered from GERD for years and have tried all of the AMA's recommended cures. None of them worked, some even caused internal bleeding.

A few years ago I was told to try a little baking soda solution when the reflux came on strong. It worked very well, and is now my go-to solution when I wake up with tasty hydrochloric acid in my mouth while sleeping. (Yes, I could go on and on about diet, exercise, chiropractic cures for hiatal hernias, etc., but if you suffer, you'll find your own path, and if you don't, undoubtedly I've already disgusted you with too-graphic language.)

It's simple: counter the overactive stomach acid with a weak base. It works. Not sure I agree with the idea of making an entire diet out of it, though.

What is your baking soda to water mix ratio? Or do you take it straight?

I use about a half teaspoon in a half cup (4 oz.) of water.

"and have tried all of the AMA's recommended cures. None of them worked"

But sodium bicarbonate is a standard medical treatment for acid stomach or reflux. They even have it in pill form.

AKA, Tums.

Tums is calcium carbonate, not sodium bicarbonate.

The bicarb is what really matters

So is Tums safe since it isn't bicarbonate? I take it every day to counteract acidic foods.

The excess calcium can greatly increase your risk of kidney stones.

This is myth, Ca actually can reduce kidney stones while Na increases the probability they will develop. Ca could have negative cardiac effects above 1200mg per day though.

https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/urologic-diseas...

I’m uncertain which is correct now. My own healthcare provider warned me of the correlation...

And it’s also listed as a(n) (albeit rare) side effect here.

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/patientinstructions/000198.htm

CaCO3 and NaHCO3 effect pH in similar ways, Calcium Carbonate is the stronger alkaline buffer though because it can pick up 2 H+ where as bicarb alread has an H+. Both can form bicarbonate ions depending on the pH.

lawr.ucdavis.edu/classes/ssc102/Section5.pdf

Don't make calcium supplements (ie Tums) a regular part of your diet:

https://nutritionfacts.org/2018/03/22/if-calcium-supplements...

It’s literally alkaselzer I thought.

Yes, but alka seltzer also has aspirin in it and anhydrous citric acid.

Alka Seltzer Gold omits the aspirin.

I guess the doctors I saw didn't know that. I heard about it from a fellow sufferer.

> I've suffered from GERD for years and have tried all of the AMA's recommended cures.

AFAICT, there are no such things; GERD has standard treatments, none of which are cures.

> It's simple: counter the overactive stomach acid with a weak base.

Yes, but that's a standard GERD treatment: antacids. While sodium bicarbonate doesn't seem to be particularly commonly preferred, calcium carbonate and other antacids operate by exactly the mechanism you describe.

Yes, treatments not cures. Tums etc. have been ineffective.

Mine went away so long as I don't eat after 6pm.

For anyone wondering, it took about 2-3 weeks of no eating after 6 for the problem to disappear for me.

Paradoxically I found that drinking a glass of diluted (#) vinegar extinguishes the reflux for me. My rationalization is that a sudden punch of vinegar causes the esophagus to slam shut in response to increased acidity, as it is designed to do. By contrast a slower drip of stomach acid was not sufficiently strong to trigger the same reaction.

(#) I dilute it to the point where it's still strong but already drinkable.

Vinegar is a base not an acid. It will counter high acid.

For acid issues raw ginger is powerful.

Isn’t the active ingredient in vinegar an acid, namely acetic acid?

Vinegar is literally an acid (acetic acid in particular). You can test this yourself at home by mixing it with baking soda.

Plain vinegar is while apple cider vinegar is a base. For some reason did not picture someone drinking plain vinegar.

Vinegar is made by first fermenting sugar into alcohol with yeast and then a bacteria converts the alcohol into acetic acid.

White vinegar is distilled so it contains to a certain level of purity only acetic acid and water.

Apple cider vinegar uses apples as the source material and isn't distilled so it contains some apple flavor.

Apple cider vinegar is just white vinegar with a little flavor.

It's also a favorite of health wonks. It don't mean the opposite of everything the crazies say is true, but you get a lot of people with virtually no information "teaching" each other about apple cider vinegar which leads to the silly idea that apple cider vinegar is a base.

Apple cider vinegar is made through the same fermentation process as regular vinegar, just using apples to create cider and then further fermenting it to create vinegar (hence "apple cider" vinegar). All vinegar is made through the fermentation of ethanol (and that ethanol is fermented from a variety of sources depending on which type of vinegar you are buying). Furthermore, the Wikipedia page[1] clearly says

> Acetic acid and malic acid give [apple cider] vinegar its sour taste.

Not to mention that bases don't taste sour (they taste bitter or soapy), and given that you can use apple cider vinegar (as with any other vinegar) to add sourness to food I'm a little confused why you'd think two types of vinegar have fundamentally different chemistry.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_cider_vinegar

Like lemon, apple cider vinegar is said to produce alkaline byproducts and lower your body pH after consumption, which might be true but doesn’t mean either is a base.

You've apparently read too many homeopathic pamphlets.

Get pH paper and test them both. They're both acetic acid and low pH. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be vinegar.

If it was basic, it would be some acetate salt.

I do the same. I have found it enormously helpful.

Consider an alternative theory: the vinegar is a digestive aid (just like pineapple) and your root cause or part of it is, in fact, indigestion. I only suggest this because I found indigestion to be the one and only consistent cause to heartburn/reflux in myself. Seems like some foods don’t want to break down from normal stomach acid but will respond to other acids. So that’s my theory. But whether it’s accurate or not, it does work.

Doubtful, at least for my case. Effect appears immediately and takes hold in under two minutes.

pineapple is a digestive aid due to an enzyme it contains which breaks down protein. it's pH is not entirely relevant, although acids also break down proteins.

A common argument for vinegar is that the microbiome in your gut needs bacteria to feed on nutrients your body doesn't absorb easily (fiber) and that vinegar (usually apple cider vinegar) helps the bacteria in your gut digest this fiber (via fermentation).

Basically, vinegar makes your stomach bacteria happy, which makes your greater digestive tract happy in turn.

I don't know how true this is, but I do know greater amounts of research are being done on the microbiome as of late, and we're learning just how important it is for our overall health. So it wouldn't surprise me if this explanation is close to correct.

Be careful, from my understanding if you keep doing that, your body cranks up the acid production in response. My wife's father died just before we started dating from esophageal cancer and he had gerd and ate lots of tums.

Zantac is what works for me, with maybe Prilosec every now and then if it gets bad. That and don't eat for 3-4 hours before bed.

I control my diet pretty well these days, so it only happens maybe three or four times a year.

Both Prilosec and Nexium caused internal bleeding in my case. Zantac was ineffective.

Have you tried “crazy” things like going low fat or easy to digest foods? I used to have to take nexium, but stopped after having my gallbladder removed and, more impactfully, going vegan. I used to have full on esophageal spasms. They led me to the ER twice out of the pain. In hindsight, dairy’s fat content (amongst other things) was really irritating my stomach.

Yes, foods with high amounts of fat are on the long list of things I avoid. I ate a vegan diet for over a year, but have added some meats and eggs back more recently. Dairy fat is irritating to me too.

Funny, high fat used to be on my list too, but on a keto diet my Gerd has disappeared almost completely.

Am I right to infer that taking 2g of baking soda in 250ml water (as done in this study) to fight my autoimmune issues might lead to me having a higher risk of esophageal cancer?

Tums are not baking soda though so...

Just freakin' roll your own, sheesh. Bake your own bread, get some bicarb-soda from the natural side of life, ingest it regularly instead of a trucked-in consumer-ingredient.

Its not so hard. For a lot of us, its a huge duh that bicarb is good for you. I mean, a lot of us get it already.

I used to pop Pepcid AC's like candy. Having nothing to do with my reflux I started doing IF with a low carb diet, and about a month in I realized I hadn't popped a single Pepcid. It's been over a year and I've had like 2 or 3 of them, when combinations of foods just provoke the reflux.

I can't say for sure, but I think both were important factors for me.

Btw, the IF I do is called 4:3, I think. Basically, 3 24-hr fasts a week. The rest of the days are regular. That's it. I don't really hold to it strictly anymore. I didn't do any full 24-hr periods in the last week, but it definitely trained me to eat a lot less, and that's what really helped the reflux.

Just passing this on, in case it helps you.

FTI: IF = Intermittent fasting

NFI FTI?

FTI: FYI typo on QWERTY NFI: Not found on the internetz?

Also known as “no (expletive) idea”

"For Their Information", i.e. I wasn't telling e40. (Yes, I am aware of the irony here).

> chiropractic cures for hiatal hernias

This is the best solution to prevent the problem. Going to the chiropractor is impractical though because of how often you need to do it. Learn to do it yourself. Learn to identify when you need to. Literally saved my life.

Although the baking soda definitely helps when you get a mouthful (or sometimes lungful) of wretched hot stomach acid.

Also not eating at night.

> Learn to do it yourself.

I use a lot of stretches, my hot-tub, and the side of my pickup bed. The hot-tub has an extended vertical feature that is about 4 inches wide that I can stretch my back over while sliding down it, and it pops almost my entire spine back into place. I use the pickup similarly when traveling.

That probably feels pretty good but it's not how to treat a hiatal hernia. It's probably making it worse.

To treat a hiatal hernia stand with your back against a wall, bend over slightly, and relax your stomach muscles. Then with both your thumbs press in on your solar plexus like you are trying to touch your spine with your thumbs. Then slowly slide your thumbs down towards your navel. As you approach the navel push down to the left. Repeat two or three times.

You should feel immediate relief. Eventually you will be able to tell when you need to do it.

Been on this awful GERD ride myself for a few years. Found that CBD Oils have been able to not just treat but also prevent the symptoms.

If you aren’t trying them it might be a good time to start.

How do you take the CBD?

I've been vaping it for 3.5 months now, paid €30 for the vaporizer, and €30 for 10ml liquid with 100mg of CBD (quite low concentration, others might need more). 1-2 puffs per day are perfect for me (there seems to be an individual optimum dosage; I feel quite anxious after say 10 puffs), and I think the bottle will last 6 months in total. It's a godsend, seriously recommend it to anybody. I'm slowly getting sharper every month, to the point that difficult programming tasks and musical pieces don't bother me at all anymore. I can/could work 30% longer every day without feeling terrible at night, and my musical hearing has improved SO much. I also have my first healthy tan since age 18 or so, and way more freckles (lost those over the years) - people keep telling me how healthy I look.

Regarding GERD - I don't have it, but the reason why it helps might be that it suppresses acid production a bit. Or maybe because it's anti-inflammatory (GERD has been linked to increased cytokine production lately).

I consume edibles and oils.

It’s been a miracle for my GERD & anxiety. From what I’ve read it treats inflammation, reduces anxiety, and acts as a pain killer.

Your risk of esophageal cancer does not decrease with antacid use, in fact it often hides the problem, when you should get evaluated by a gastroenterologist.

Esophageal cancer is a mean beast.

Have you ever tried just chewing gum when you have reflux? From what I can tell it causes you to continuously generate and swallow saliva which keeps the reflux down until you've digested.

I have a heital hernia and this works well for me (and got my wife through some tough episodes during pregancy).

I always just downed a bottle of water which usually helps raise the ph level enough for me to feel better.

http://www.jimmunol.org/content/200/10/3568/tab-figures-data

Here's the paper if anyone wants it.

Here’s the Sci-Hub link: http://doi.org.https.sci-hub.hk/10.4049/jimmunol.1701605 [PDF]

Human subjects were dosed 2g (about a fifth of a teaspoon) in 250mL of water each day.

N=12. Merits further investigation, but not yet behavioural changes.

Honest question: does 'N' usually exclude the control group? Total human participants was 18, 6 for the control group.

I agree that N is too small to warrant such hubbub.

Normally, you just report them separately as in “six subjects were assigned to a control arm, while twelve received treatment.” The groups are often about the same size, though you might put more subjects in the treatment group if you suspect some heterogeneity in the response to treatment.

A better design would test all subjects in both conditions—take a baseline sample, treat everyone and take a second sample, and then take a final sample after you think the treatment has washed out. An even better design would be a cross-over experiment, where half of the subjects receive the treatment first, then are “crossed over” to the control group, while the rather half get a mirror-image treatment.

That's naive approach to decision making seemingly based on a narrow frequentist outlook eschewing a copious amount of prior knowledge on the subject. An analytical/scientific outlook on deciding behavioral decisions doesn't mean you only accept things based on whether a single research trial rejects the null hypothesis. I'd recommend reading more on probabilistic decision making [cf 1].

Personally this research has convinced me to try a small amount of baking soda. Specifically, I'm basing this decisions as the outcome of an internal decision matrix based on reading a lot of prior literature and personal experimentation balanced with the low risk of the behavior changes and not by taking the article in isolation. Personally, I've read a number of various "anecdotal" evidence pointing toward acidity / pH balance but didn't take it too seriously as it seemed unlikely modifying dietary pH levels could affect blood chemistry. This article provides both a plausible method of actions built around solid dual-pronged approach. The direct physiological studies with mice shows direct (and high powered results) indicating shifting populations of regulatory cells based on sodium bicarbonate intake. Combined with even a low power human based trial it overall yields a fairly convincing argument. There's lots of prior evidence linking RA severity with regulatory immune cells [2]. In the rise of recent direct links of immunology and gut flora it's very likely there's links of diet to immunological health as well.

Therefore, I'm going to experiment a bit and see if it helps with periodic inflammation. Unfortunately whether any effects last long term or build up tolerance would be good to know. But even temporary relief that could cope with flare-ups would be very helpful, and given the caustic nature of auto-immune medications a bit of baking soda has small risk profile [cf 3] that I'm willing to tolerate.

1: https://cocosci.berkeley.edu/tom/papers/OneAndDone.pdf 2: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/1529-0131%28... 3: https://www.statnews.com/2017/06/05/actemra-rheumatoid-arthr...

Not much at all. Thanks. I was about to ask since the article didn't mention.

Back when I was rowing, I heard of a way to boost your performance in sprint races called "soda doping". The idea was that lactic acid buildup (leading to fatigue and pain) limits rowing performance. Therefore, consuming something basic should help, right? Apparently, drinking a baking soda solution right before a race could make you go a lot faster -- the caveat was that you would have be shitting like crazy soon after.

I have no idea if this is true or even plausible, but it seems somewhat relevant.

This sounded like BS to me so I looked it up, but it seems like there is some genuine scientific evidence that this is a real thing. The baking soda doesn't actually make it into your muscles, but it does lower the pH of your blood, which in turn pulls the lactic acid out of your muscles.

http://doctoroffitness.com/resources/fitness-articles/item/q... . Checked a couple of the referenced articles and they seemed pretty legit.

Here comes the Science:

"The effect of chronic progressive-dose sodium bicarbonate [baking soda] ingestion on CrossFit-like performance: A double-blind, randomized cross-over trial."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29771966

"CONCLUSIONS: Progressive-dose SB [baking soda] ingestion regimen eliminated GI side effects and improved CrossFit-like performance, as well as delayed ventilatory threshold occurrence."

It can also induce diarrhoea. And taking substances for performance enhancement is essentially doping (as in: not permitted for most sports).

Naturally occurring salts available as commodity food ingredients at every grocery store? Eating is essentially doping? Brushing your teeth is doping?

Wearing corrective lenses improves performance. Is wearing glasses considered doping too?

The list of things not allowed exists: it's official for every sport association that adheres to it. There's authorities, rules and processes for testing them.

So it's not really obscure and doping only matters under those terms. Outside that scope whatever you use is on your conscience alone.

See also danburbridge's reply to GP.

Yes, it can have pretty explosive side effects...

But it's not on the WADA banned list so you are free to try it.

Caffeine is also an ergogenic and is not banned by WADA, either in or out of competition.

>the problems were hypertension and chronic kidney disease,

It's interesting that these are both conditions usually normally associated with excess sodium in the diet. However, baking soda, as the name suggests, contains sodium! So that it would prevent these diseases is surprising. But sodium is normally consumed as a component of salt, which, in addition to sodium, contains chloride.

That raises a question I'm surprised I can't answer: how do we know that any of the problems we blame on sodium are not in fact the result of chloride? I found this:

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/222/4628/1139

http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/2168457

I definitely did not expect to find that much support for this idea when I started this. I'm not convinced yet, though.

My guess is that the real explanation for this conundrum is that “associated with” is not the same thing as “caused by”. Nutrition science and especially reporting on nutrition science makes too much of correlation because randomized controlled trials are expensive.

Interesting. But it also feels like this helps to return the body to a more natural state. The question then becomes: What in modern living is knocking the body off its center? How could the need for this "cure" be prevented?

Any thoughts?

Acids and large protein consumption. Meat, wheat, dairy. Toxic to the human body. It's really quite simple. You eat death, you get death.

Plants are death too no?

If you think a melon or celery represent death more than a piece of steak sliced out of a dirty, diseased cow full of nasty man made food, hormones and "medications".. then you are quite far gone. Hopefully you will see the light before the illnesses kick in for you.

I hope you remember to sanitize your keyboard daily. :)

I'm not sure I understand your point - are you comparing the cleanliness of my keyboard to the horrible living conditions of a typical cow? I highly doubt the keys on my keyboard have manure on them.

You’d be surprised. If you’ve ever taken a dump and then returned to your keyboard right after without taking a shower then fecal matter has almost certainly found its way to your keyboard. Fecal flakes proliferate through the air when you take a shit. The stronger the smell, the more flakes there are. They stick to your body and clothes, and then inevitably smeared on your keyboard.

Excellent. Multiply by 10 if you have dogs.

In an effort to make a smart witty comment you completely missed my point. I said my keyboard doesn't have manure on it, not any kind of fecal matter.

For that matter - you don’t keep your toothbrush in your bathroom do you?

Have you stopped to think about what "feeds" the plants and vegetables?

There is a whole lot of "death" in the dirt.

None of us are getting out alive. Sprouting pseudo science isn’t going to keep you here any longer

Also, don't forget to drive without a seatbelt, never get any exercise, don't brush your teeth, and don't have a fire extinguisher. Because, you know, anyway none of us are getting out alive.

Except exercise and seatbelts aren’t pseudoscience

With all due respect, there is science on plant based diets and caloric restriction being correlated with increased longevity.

Vegans still die, non-vegans can still outlive them, anyone can get hit by a bus, etc.

Let’s just get this out there: there is no long term randomized controlled trial that has ever been conducted which is capable of proving that one diet is better than other diets.

Period.

Nutrition science is a joke. It’s basically all short term studies which tell you nothing about long term effects of diet, or it’s long term epidemiological studies which are fundamentally incapable of controlling for confounding variables.

I heard it that the Mediterranean diet is the most studied of them all, and it seems [1] that all studies are within 5 years of length.

So yeah. No long-term studies. It's not even clear if we have hope for such. The military could summon the discipline, but soldiers do retire early. Maybe the officers, I don't know.

[1] https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/5-studies-on-the-medite...

It’s crazy because diet is probably the most important thing we could study right now. Surely the astronomical cost of a randomized controlled study would be way less than the healthcare costs associated with not understanding what diets are healthy.

It's not a high priority because the correct diet (raw fruits and some veggies) will lead to a huge reduction in so-called "auto-immune diseases", diabetes, cancers, all IBS related, etc. Big Pharma and all others involved in the machine called modern medicine will suffer financially.

That is an awfully strong statement. Do you have qualifications to dismissed the entire field, or is more of an opinion? And even though it's not up to your (admittedly best case) standard, don't population studies, twin studies, et al have some value. It seems it would be effectively impossible to research anything at all about nutrition otherwise.

Show me your favorite nutritional study and I’ll be happy to explain why it can’t actually tell us anything about the long term effects of diet on health.

As a professional statistician I support the statement that most nutrition studies suffer from grave methodological problems. See https://www.vox.com/2016/1/14/10760622/nutrition-science-com... for a good layman writeup.

Overall a good write up, but that they end with a consensus statement by nutrition researchers after explaining why no nutrition research is really capable of telling us anything is just about the perfect encapsulation of what is wrong with nutrition research and reporting on the subject.

Yes. But I think if you step back it makes (evolutionary) sense that genetics and diet are tied. That is, diet for one gene profile might not be idea for another gene profile.

That, to me, makes sense.

If that's the case, what is the ideal diet for genetic "hybrids"? Does mixing gene pools __and__ diets lead to more disease?

Modern First World dietary habits are driven by want, not needs. Does this confuse (?) the body and lead to more disease?

If evolution is about survival, and health is tied to survival, it's not as crazy as it sounds.

It might make sense to you, but there is as yet no evidence for any of this, except more broad statements such as 'eating enormous bulk calories every day will probably kill you faster than not doing so'.

What are you saying/meaning by disease? Cancer is tied to length of life, and to a small degree, diet (bowel ca) and other modifiable risk factors (ie fat people have higher rates of cancer due to increased numbers of cells... which is interesting because most data says we don't produce new cells for fat, the fat cells just get bigger. So there is a mismatch there that isn't entirely explained by the data i've seen)

Osteoarthritis is clearly linked to weight, so people put their knees/hips/backs out at higher rates.

lack of exercise/modern lifestyle again ties in with the sports injuries.

On everything else, I challenge you to Prove that there is actually more disease. More disease of what? We have reduced or eliminated huge volumes of disease through vaccination and other preventable health. The other stuff is life/longevity linked, or reduced activity linked (ie T2DM/Metabolic Syndrome).

It is a very modern and pseudoscientific concern to be trying to link all this to diet. Yes, you should probably try and eat fresh stuff more than processed stuff. Yes your life should include an exercise regime. But your body is pretty good at breaking down macronutrients into micronutrients, and even though some of those micronutrients can function as drugs, there is not enough evidence to say anything too exciting here

I’m not at all saying that there isn’t a diet that works best for most people most of the time. I, personally, believe that this is the case. But there is simply no conclusive evidence in favor of any given person’s favorite diet being that diet. And the inconclusive evidence that does exist is much weaker than most people seem to think that it is.

Which is very different from drinking baking soda

>Acids and large protein consumption. Meat, wheat, dairy. Toxic to the human body. It's really quite simple. You eat death, you get death.

Whereas vegans don't die?

Also "toxic to the human body" is just bad dietary advice.

Fast food vegans sure do die. And if you believe that nothing you can eat can be toxic to your body, you already lost in life.

All vegans die, all things can be toxic to the human body, water and even air.

Plants and vegetables were "alive" in some capacity before they were torn from their natural habit, violently macerated and forced into a highly acidic stomach to be digested over a period of hours.

Fruits are given to you by nature, no one takes them violently (unless picked unripe, which is a problem on its own in this country). Also unlike dead flesh, they take at most 30ish minutes to digest, not hours where they go rancid in your body like most other foods.

>Fruits are given to you by nature, no one takes them violently

You'd be surprised: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_republic

>Also unlike dead flesh

This has a tone of religious indignation in it. You do know that it's not only perfectly natural, but that there are species that have evolved evolutionary to eat meat, the ones we call carnivores, right?

Again you resort to extremes to justify your (likely) unhealthy lifestyle and make a point that really contributes nothing to the conversation.

And then, what is your second point there? Are you a carnivore?

Why is "dead flesh" triggering you so much? Are you ripping into live animals in the wild and swallowing them whole? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, I would love to meet the first lion using HN.

>And then, what is your second point there? Are you a carnivore?

No, but I'm an omnivore, and belong to a species that has been known to be eating meat all throughout its evolutionary history [1], and throughout all its 4+ millennia of actual civilization and history, all around the world. So, there's that.

>Why is "dead flesh" triggering you so much?

Don't confuse someone objecting to morally loaded language like "dead flesh" with being "triggered".

In fact, don't use cheap parlor tricks like "why are you triggered" to shift the discussion from arguments to sentiments and ad hominem.

>Are you ripping into live animals in the wild and swallowing them whole?

If live oysters qualify, then yes.

But usually we don't call what we eat "dead flesh", in the same way we don't say we eat "ground wheat" when we eat bread or pasta. we eat steaks and meatballs and so on. We also don't eat just the flesh. We also eat the skin -- and some of us, we enjoy the bone marrow too.

So your phrasing is just a cheap (and insulting to our intelligence) trick to impose a sentimental undertone to the discussion. Which is part of the reason you have been downvoted to grayness.

Plus, fruits and plants are still alive when you eat them (their cells are still working fine) -- so, are you eating them alive? You monster!

[1] https://www.americanscientist.org/article/meat-eating-among-...

Everything you metabolize both keeps you alive, and harms you. Like fruit? Well, pectin isn’t very good you in the long run. Metabolic activity is messy, produces toxins we need to Eli inste through urine and feces, and that’s that. We’re all dying, and no fantasy of a special diet can change that. While some diets are better for you than others, it’s not as laughably clear cut as “eating death” or whatever nonsense.

The very act of living produces toxins, period.

Wait. Please elaborate on how pectin isn't good for you.

Oxidation of pectin produces a small quantity of formaldehyde as a metabolite. I’m not suggesting that you shouldn’t eat fruit or jams by the way, it’s just an example of how something considered broadly healthy still produces toxins that require elimination. Metabolism by its very nature produces energy and “exhaust” in the form of heat and metabolites. To be clear, you’re getting a lot more methanol metabolism from a drink of alcohol than an apple, so eat the fruit. No matter what we do we’re. It living forever based on diet, we should just try to avoid too much excess and accept that living isn’t a thermodynamically favorable process.

Formaldehyde is such a small molecule that you'll never avoid it. It forms pretty easily.

Molecule size isn't what determines how easily a molecule forms.

... So, "The benefits of eating fresh fruits infinitely outweighs the negatives of pectin. Even pure pectin probably is a net benefit because it slows sugar digestion and lowers cholesterol absorption vs the small amount of formaldehyde produced as a metabolic byproduct." ... would that be a more better way of describing pectin than what you said earlier?

There's a few cases of people going all-meat -- apparently successfully fixing autoimmune and inflammation.

>Fast food vegans sure do die.

As opposed to proper vegans, who live forever?

>And if you believe that nothing you can eat can be toxic to your body, you already lost in life.

Plenty can be toxic, including all kinds of plants (heroin is made from a plant). But the best diets according to longevity statistics and scientific studies still include meat, e.g. the Mediterranean diet.

Or you can ignore those, and opt for some semi-mystical, culting fad diet.

It's funny how in these type of threads people like to play dumb.

Obviously no one is saying vegans live forever. It's not what this is about. Even if we all die eventually, why not have the best quality if life possible and have as few health problems possible, if any at all?

>Even if we all die eventually, why not have the best quality if life possible and have as few health problems possible, if any at all?

That's not what's disputed here though. That a vegan diet is the best way to achieve that, is.

There is no such single concept as a vegan diet. Drinking coca cola is vegan. "Vegans" can have a diet worse than those who simply consume animal products. I did not say the answer is a vegan diet, commenters here kind of assumed it.

>There is no such single concept as a vegan diet.

Well, you now get all subtle on us, whereas a few comments before you summed consuming meat as "eat death, get death".

Turns out there's not a single concept as a "non vegan diet" either. It doesn't mean one gorges on huge steaks all day, or one doesn't have a perfectly healthy and balanced diet.

Afaik, the best diets for longevity are based on calorie reduction. For some reason that doesn't compromise the immune system, and a stronger immune sys leads to a layer death.

Again, afaik.

Exactly, and to that point, many many "diseases" can be cured with a prolonged water fast (10-40 days, depending on severity, and obviously closely monitoring vitals throughout the process). It's incredibly unfortunate that not more people have access to this very simple guidance. Diabetes (yes, some type 1s included), Crohn's, Colitis, arthritis, the list is as long as the number of downvotes I get every time I share this.

Breaking down wheat and dairy is difficult and breaks down into toxic elements. For thise who cannot remove the waste it becomes toxic.

Meat can be extremely healthy but some types are rich in oils that can't break down easy. Bacon vs lean pork

Carbs are the easiest thing to break down and digest.

Pure glucose would be ideal, from a 'breakdown' perspective.

There are many good rational arguments in favor of veganism. "You eat death, you get death" is not one of them.

Acids? Like stronger acids than the stomach acid already inside of the human body? I doubt that considering stomach acid damages teeth. Nobody would have teeth left.

Large protein consumption? Like what many many people do for health reasons, keto, body builders, etc? People in prime health condition?

And what about fructose malabsorption with certain fruits and vegatables? Some people can't eat certain things otherwise it will make them sick due to this illness.

Go back to reddit with your pseudo science trolling. HN is one of the few decent spots on the internet for discussions and it certainly isn't improved by people like you.

Not sure if you’re aware of this, but dairy has been a fundamental part of European diets for thousands of years. Plenty of Europeans live to old age.

Your question needs re framing.

The cell, and life by extension/function, is a reverse entropy machine. Is must be continually off centre in order to be able to go on generating its functions, such as enabling you to ask questions based on feelings

>The cell, and life by extension/function, is a reverse entropy machine.

I've always thought the same thing myself. Posits some interesting mind experiments on the possibility of the big crunch vs. heat death of the universe.

I think about this sometimes when on a ketogenic diet. You shed 3 or 4 lbs of water in the first few days. Then it’s an effort to make sure I keep enough salt in my diet.

And magnesium, I hope.

> What in modern living is knocking the body off its center?

Abundance and industrial processing.

Europe doesn't have the same problem the rest of the 1st world has with obesity. They also have crazy strict food purity laws. No additives. Very little processing. What you get is what's on the label[0]. I don't think it's a coincidence that people see improvements in their health once they start eating "closer to the farm."

We're also a victim of our own success in many ways. The human body is still adapted to operate under pre-agricultural conditions. Food consumption was more along the lines of "binge and starve" than "steady grazing". Our bodies deteriorate quickly in space when we no longer have Earth's gravity to fight against. Is it really a surprise that our bodies also deteriorate when we no longer have hunger to fight against?

[0]: Before anybody says that what's on the label is accurate in the US, look into what 'natural flavor' means. There's nothing natural about them and they aren't necessarily flavorings.

I would like to see a definition, of what "a center" is. And what is normal? Is pre-agriculture normal? Or were they all sick, just in a different way? Is getting a hundred years old normal? Is being healthy on the surface normal or just a temporary balance between all chaotic influences? Or is it just luck, to be able to cope with present environment?

I do not know. And i can not judge, if we have enough data to judge.

But i think, calling out abundance and industrial processing, i am sure, there are correlations, but as reason for knocking people off center? Its just energy, no?

If you look at where our gut originated from (requiring cooked food incidentally some think around the time fire was discovered/tamed) then “normal” would be starve/binge. The agricultural revolution would be a very recent development.

Hell we have an unnecessary organ just for binging on fat.

If taking baking soda helps then not having to take baking soda would be normal. The arc of my point / question was is this:

Why do we keep "curing" that which can be prevented? Instead we keep grabbing the balloon, and then pay (more) to add that "cure" to our lives.

T2 Diabetes is not normal. It is preventable. We have a "cure." But instead of using that cure, we're investing - read: wasting - resources looking for a cure that will need to be paid for.

Inflamation is (likely) the same. Mind you, baking soda is inexpensive. But as cures go, prevention (and a return to a natural norm) is #1.

> Europe doesn't have the same problem the rest of the 1st world has with obesity.

Europe has the same problem, only to a lesser degree. According to [1]: Weight problems and obesity are increasing at a rapid rate in most of the EU Member States, with estimates of 51.6 % of the EU’s population (18 and over) overweight in 2014.

[1] http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/...

Unhealthy oils promoted as healthy or plain fry food will change the ph in your digestive track.

My pet theory is "refined sugar and other simple carbs'.

Simple carbs spike up blood sugar through the roof, the body responds by dumping insulin, the insulin causes blood sugar to be sequestered in fat and muscle cells (as intended), but if the dump is large it may overshoot and the blood sugar falls through the floor. Aka "sugar crash". The crash will of course make you crave food again, the same simple carb kind. Vicious cycle.

This sort of see-saw messes you up real bad. So I was told [1]

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Get-Fat-About/dp/0307474259

I agree with you. These things, esp refined sugar, are an historic abnormality. But we assume that since it's in the supermarket and on TV (e.g., soda) it's perfectly fine.

It's not.

It's normalized. So normalized that suggesting otherwise make you the crazy one.

The problem could be over-breathing, i.e. exhaling too much CO2. This lowers the blood CO2/bicarbonate levels and inhibits the oxygen release from hemoglobine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohr_effect).

The remedy is to breath less, both less frequent and less voluminous. Very little breathing is needed to saturate the blood O2 levels, as can be checked with a simple pulse oxymeter.

Also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buteyko_method

Ive seen various versions of this story recently but can’t seem to find any that describe the dose or the formulation eg dissolved in water.

Note, however, that almost anything that hampers your metabolism (such as fasting or a ketogenic diet) or overburdens your body, will strongly tend to be anti-inflammatory, for the simplest of reasons: your body wants to fight an invader or toxin (that maybe it shouldn't) but you've clamped down on its ability to do as much as it likes; you've put it on a budget. This will also limit your ability to repair DNA and much else.

I'm not saying that's the mechanism here, but it could be, and is for very many anti-inflammatory effects.

Granted, fasting is part of our evolutionary history, some of it does seem to be healthy, overall.

There is some interesting research on fasting and the immune system:

https://news.usc.edu/63669/fasting-triggers-stem-cell-regene...

I'm 35, I've had issues with heartburn for most of my adult life. A few times, I've used baking soda temporarily when I don't have access to another antacid. I quit doing that, because of the last three times. The two times before last, my right knee dislocated ("popped out") hours after and I fell to the floor. That was startling. I didn't "correlate" that it could be related until the second time it happened. The final time I had it, I woke up to a burning and excruciating pain that coursed my entire back. I don't know if it was the ligaments, the discs, or what not but it was painful. I've felt that a few more times in the middle of the night without having had baking soda. So, very likely not related since it was a single dose. But, I'm not experimenting with baking soda as an antacid again with my knee having dislocated twice! There must be no relation but it's a lot like never eating a food again after getting terribly ill. Not gonna do that again!

Don't go wild on this, or I suppose you might end up with another condition, which could be worse:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achlorhydria

I'm in kidney failure and one of the pills I take is sodium bicarbonate.

I’m sorry to hear that. Best wishes to you. I don’t know what to say that must be terrifying. I wish you good health and healing.

Thanks for the well wishes. It was terrifying when I was first diagnosed but I've learned to accept and move ahead one day at a time. Thankfully dialysis is an option to extending my life despite being inconvenient and limiting.

What caused it?

An autoimmune disease called IgA nephropathy. Happens to 1 in 5000 people. Kind of pops up in your middle age without an noticeable symptoms.

Quitting sugar worked wonders for me

I don't have any links off hand now but if you are interested in a more "natural" (add yourself a few extra nested quotes in there please) try googling for ACV or apple cider vinegar drinks, which promotes the same results with far less risk. Folks into ketogenic eating habits and intermittent fasting love this, although I couldn't get past the first glass due to the bitter taste.

Vinegar is an acid, so it tastes sour. Ditto citrus fruits.

Bases taste bitter and feel slippery.

Human bodies are usually capable of dealing with quite a lot of acid or base coming in through the digestive system. I really don't know what sort of "risk" you're talking about.

Thanks for the vocabulary fix. As for the risk, google for the effects of too much acidic drinking to teeth and esophagus. People remove deep rust from iron using vinegar, I'd rather don't underestimate it myself.

As a professional cyclist, my little brother has been doing this for many years

I wonder how it compares to curcumin. Substantially cheaper no doubt

Wouldn't this lead to an overdose of sodium? (yes I'm ignorant about this subject matter).

You can certainly overdose on Baking Soda and cause serious harm, so you want to get the dosage right.

you will get very bad diarrhea before it's dangerous. and keep in mind the study was a gram a day.

Yeah, what about side-effects? will there be any?

Severe bloating, I went off long term ppi and tried baking soda daily. Went back to ppis.

How much is a daily dose?

I had suffered from dueodenul ulcers, and was hospitalized, almost died.

This was right before my 21st birthday, so afterwards, during that time in my life, I attended alot of parties, but my stomach would often sour (time of night, food, etc.).

I was not much of a drinker, but I would use baking soda at house parties when my stomach started to turn.

I would not do it daily, but 1 tsp dissolved in approx 6 oz of water as needed.

Works within 15 minutes.

It's basically what alka-seltzer, long-time hangover cure, is made of, with a little aspirin added.

My only experience with this is for chronic metabolic acidosis due to renal failure (in a parent) - there are sodium bicarbonate tablets in 325 and 650mg. Taken multiple times a day. Somewhere around 1500-3000mg/day. Looks like this study was working with a single amount of 2g dissolved in 250mL.

I believe it, this is a warning right on the box of Arm & Hammer.

Also if you have any heart problem, the high amount of sodium could aggravate it.

Did you go back to a PPI even knowing the side effects of PPIs? Were you taking baking soda for reflux/stomach discomfort?

Whether baking soda works or not, eating a healthy diet with lots of leafy greens is a proven way to reduce inflammation in the body. Getting the right amount of vitamin D is another. Eating health fats like Omega 3s helps. And engaging in moderate exercise, getting good sleep, and having good connection to family, friends, and nature also help reduce inflammation in various ways. And of course avoid sugar and most refined carbohydrates -- as well as most food additives. Example link: https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/foods-that-fi...

So basically no single fix, just a generally healthy lifestyle accompanied by a healthy balance of stress.

Except you can do all that (have always done that) and still be struck down with run-away inflammation, and without being some obvious genetic outlier.

What you are describing is nowhere near the cure-all that unsymptomatic bystanders assume it is.

You may also get hit by a car or get struck by lightning. Nothing is a guaranteed cure-all but what the GP describes is probably a good idea for a lot of people.

Well cerntainly a good idea to have a balanced healthy diet, taking daily amounts of baking soda is not to keep your self healthy, but rather to help those that have an abnormal autoimmune response.

For those with autoimmune disorders no amount of healthy diet is enough.

/!\ HOAX Alert /!\ For some weird reason this story or a variation thereof keeps going viral while both the cited article and the journalist involved have been burned over and over again at various places. TL;DR Correlation is not causation. Also: The human body generally regulates acidity using the kidney ( takes some time ) or the respiratory system. ( Quick, breathing CO2) If drinking acids or a base would directly supersede the values created by the aforementioned system this would not be a good thing.

It’s odd how the article ends with “Baking soda also interact with acidic ingredients like buttermilk and cocoa in cakes and other baked goods to help the batter expand and, along with heat from the oven, to rise. It can also help raise the pH in pools, is found in antacids and can help clean your teeth and tub.” Was this also sponsored by the baking powder trade association or something?

Careful or the agents of Big Soda (the powder not the beverage) will know we are onto them :)

I recently became more aware of the uses of baking soda and searched online for a list of what people did with it. Same thing with Vaseline another time. Both times you get these weird article written by so-called mothers who list over fifty different uses (not that different, and many dubious, or with obvious unwanted side effects). It's a bit creepy.

I'll stick with biologics..

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