Such flavors in beer are often far more pronounced than in wine. The bananas and cloves thing is not subtle, and a lot of the chemicals involved are actually the same, so it's no surprise the taste is there.

In wine, the words for flavors are often not meant to be exact. Because there _are_ no direct analogues to the flavors. So you have to try to communicate using words people do know. And if that turns inward and jargony, that's simply how language functions in any community.

It should be no surprise that people experience flavors differently, so of course ratings will vary and descriptions will contradict each other. If apples or hamburgers or spring water were reviewed with the detail and scrutiny that wine is, you'd get the same results. But, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to communicate with each other about the experience of drinking the wine. Sure, it's almost entirely subjective. No wine expert will disagree with that.

I'm not quite sure how to answer you. It really depends on how the drink was made. These chemicals can be so overwhelming they punch you in the nose and make it undrinkable (I've made a few of those), they can be virtually absent, or anywhere inbetween.

The pragmatic answer to what I think you are asking is basically- in the wine world, a very few people have proven they really can distinguish just about anything. For ordinary people, you can appreciate the notes with training, but probably can't pass a blindfold test on closely related wines.

For wine at least, any sommelier at a high-end restaurant has been through a course that you don't pass until you can perceive them. I know a couple of people who have been through it, it's for real. They teach very specific sensory cues and you practice a lot. There are certainly wines that can confuse even a trained person but for the most part it's not magic.

Go drink a Hefeweizen and tell me what you think. I recommend something by Ayinger. Though chances are most American supermarkets will just have Franziskaner, which is perfectly fine if you can't find Ayinger (note: avoid American examples, even if they call themselves "Hefeweizen". American wheat beers are a totally different style and lack the banana and clove notes of German Hefeweizen).

It's not subtle. At all. Hefeweizen contains large amounts of both banana esters and clove phenols, and drinking one is like drinking spicy banana bread. The first time I had one, it was so different from everything I had before that that it was outright jarring (this was shortly after I turned 21, before I knew much about beer).

I wouldn't call them subtle, at least in the context of a screwed up batch of homebrew beer. I've certainly poured out a batch that tasted so strongly of bananas that it was undrinkable.

What he's talking about isn't usually subtle. I think the confusing part is when he's saying "bananas" or "cloves" it's a very distinctive flavor that's reminiscent of those things. That's just the closest flavor we can put a name to. Very fresh, well brewed coffee has a "cherry" flavor...it's not cherry, but is distinctive. These all come from a measurable chemical that can be reliably and consistently perceived.

Separate from that are the more subtle, more subjective flavors. I see it in beer descriptions, but they seem to be more ingrained and taken more seriously with wine.

I don’t know about studies - but the people who are master sommeliers that can do incredible blind tastings consistently give me comfort that it’s not all hocus pocus