The Gun-Law Loophole That Entices Tycoons and Criminals to Play Cop | Hacker News Reader

The Gun-Law Loophole That Entices Tycoons and Criminals to Play Cop

bloomberg.com

25 pointsthisisit45 comments

This sounds more like a problem with accountability for police departments than a fundamental flaw in LEOSA. Bloomberg is fundamentally opposed to any sort of pro-2A stance, however, so they would much rather blame the supposedly-lenient gun laws.

Considering it's nigh impossible to get police departments to be accountable (who watches the watchmen?), I'm siding with Bloomberg that if we want to solve this problem, we'll have to change the laws first (and hopefully accountability will follow).

It seems simple enough to fix. Just add a paid hours requirement to the exemption, something like 500 hours in the previous 12 months or so.

Or just get rid of it entirely.

Or make it easier to conceal carry a weapon through all 50 states. It's completely natural to arm oneself for self defense. Criminalizing this is criminalizing our human nature to be prepared and ready.

Reserve police officers often undergo the same training and perform the same functions as full time law enforcement officers in many areas. There isn't any need for HR218 changes and police standards are set on a state by state basis.

http://www.lapdonline.org/join_the_team/content_basic_view/5...

We disagree that it is okay for wealthy people to buy badges.

I'm pretty okay with letting reserve officers that don't do a lot of duty fall through the cracks, that's a better tradeoff than selling Stephen Seagull a badge.

> We disagree that it is okay for wealthy people to buy badges.

I don't think you should be able to simply purchase badges. I think reserve officers should go through the same hiring process as full time officers and attend a police academy.

So we just need to wait for the worst state to improve their standards for issuing badges then?

Seems like it might be a long wait.

Seems to me like it should be up to the state and the people in it to change their rules, if they desire to do so. It looks like the problem is the federal legislation which seems to override state decisions on who is allowed to carry concealed firearms and when.

Stephen Seagull a badge.

Seagal actually went on patrol didn’t he? There was a TV show about it.

I think it may have been the case that a TV producer thought it would be fun to get him a badge more than he was any sort of serious volunteer for the particular police force.

Police are notoriously horrible marksmen, so color me unimpressed. Check out the citations here, from a very pro-gun site: https://bearingarms.com/mike-m/2016/06/02/individual-safety-...

There is no 50 state concealed carry license. In many states, applicants for licenses must be residents of that state. This makes armed security that can follow protectees across any state border impossible without such legal hacks.

So? States should be free to decide the terms of concealed gun carriers in their states.

If you're rich enough to travel with people with hidden guns, you can get them licensed in the states you plan to visit.

> you can get them licensed in the states you plan to visit

You should reread the OP, many states do not allow non-residents to get permits. So someone who needed body guards would need a different set of body guards for every state they visit that doesn't honor their permit.

They could solve that problem by getting that state to honor the permits from the state issuing the permits to their bodyguards.

There's lots of different ways to solve the issue, but the point is they haven't, and show no signs of changing it in the future.

That would require legislation. As it stands, it is still impossible for bodyguards to have 50 state CCW without legal hacks like this one.

Then they should not carry guns where they do not have a valid permit.

Many states recognize CCW licenses from other states.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/travel/

A man was killed in Tulsa by a wealthy “volunteer” deputy. This is all part of a larger problem of police accountability and training more than gun laws.

If you didn't need a license to exercise a constitutional right this shady shit wouldn't exist.

Granting authorities from county to county use different and arbitrary criteria for licensing to concealed carry. Many counties including the one I live in don't authorize permits for law abiding citizens, no matter how well trained, for self defense. I'm a serious competitive shooter (USPSA 3gun), I shoot trap and 5-stand, and I am an avid hunter. I have attended over 100 hours of defensive pistol training, and yet, I cannot qualify for a concealed carry license in my county of residence because the Sheriff will only give them to cronies and political backers. This is what creates the badge factories, which I personally do not support. I'd rather your county of residence have stringent criteria, extensive mandatory training, and frequent re-qualification, where only highly proficient, and highly trained citizens are permitted to carry.

And a comprehensive background check and psychological examination.

There is no constitutional right for the concealed-carry of a gun.

The Constitution doesn't address whether the right to bear arms is either open or concealed carry. The Constitution does not grant this right - it, among others, is considered a natural right, applicable to the free people. It only lists this right, among others, to emphasize that government is not supposed to infringe upon it. We all see how poorly that enumerated philosophy is followed, understood, accepted, or defended.

The Constitution mandates that people have the right to bear arms; it doesn't specify about concealed carry or open carry. Yet I, as a Californian, can do neither. Open carry is illegal in California, and only a small few can get a concealed carry permit (varies by county). It is very clear that Californians' constitutional rights are being "infringed".

It's hard to argue that "bear arms" means something other than "carry a gun".

I don't think open vs. concealed matters in this context. It's probably even easier to "play a cop" with open carry.

Only if you some how believe that carrying a concealed weapon isn't bearing arms.

I think that depends on your view.

There is no constitutional right for the concealed carry of a gun, based on your view of what the second amendment means.

Is there any constitutional right that isn't also regulated with all manner of laws on top of it? Why would the gun one be any different?

I can’t think of another that is completely denied to whole groups of people at the state level.

I can’t think of another where the stakes are so high for even relatively minor unintentional violations.

Right to vote is denied to huge numbers of people who were convicted of a crime and subsequently repaid their debt to society.

I'm a lot more worried about them than people who want to carry guns hidden somewhere in their clothes.

>I'm a lot more worried about them than people who want to carry guns hidden somewhere in their clothes.

Same here, those people tend to be peaceful, law abiding citizens compared to ex-convicts.

You misunderstood, maybe intentionally as a gag. I'm more worried about the constitutional rights being denied ex-cons than I am about people who want to carry guns.

The people who want to carry guns are doing fine, it's the ones whose voting rights have been stripped of them that have been shut out of civic life, and that's definitely more cause for concern than the babies who whine about not having enough guns hidden among their clothes.

That's funny, because the people who clamor on and on, whinging about the people who want to carry guns are even more inclined to keep them from the ex-convicts.

Not me, and not people I know. You do a crime, pay your debts, welcome back to society, rights and all. I also think that the second amendment can be regulated with laws just like all the rest.

No one ever screams that driver's licenses infringe on our freedom of assembly...

If carry licenses worked like driver's licenses, the premise of this article wouldn't even exist. The reason they use this workaround and the reason it hasn't been closed off is that the tycoons could not have their armed security without it.

I am all in on licensing guns like we do cars, with mandatory tests and insurance requirements.

Interesting that - a license is not required to purchase a car, nor is a car required to be registered unless operated on public streets. Even then, there are exceptions.

Insurance is not required in many states. In Virginia, for instance, one may put up a bond in lieu of maintaining insurance. There are no states to my knowledge where insurance is required to merely own a car.

Oh, and the penalty for failing to do any of the above is like $35.

I don't really care about making their licensing regimes exactly the same.

I just want people who love their guns to start paying back the rest of us for the externalities of living in a society drowning in those guns.

My point is that what you suggested above is significantly less onerous than the requirements already in place.

As for insurance - most people who carry firearms regularly actually do have insurance to cover potential legal defense costs. Liability insurance doesn’t make much sense because the potential issues there are criminal, not civil.

Bill of rights has a something similar.

The problem that they are carrying concealed weapons is minor compared to the problem of giving out cop badges for money. Just when I thought I couldn't respect cops less, they do this. It's not a few bad apples, it's a barrel full of only rotten apples.

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