Mr. 'Deling' Responds to 'I make 500K/yr and am not rich'
delong.typepad.com
delong.typepad.com
Weirdly, I know people who make around $70k who claim that they're very well off, and seem to actually feel that way. But the people making $300k, $500k, $800k? Invariably they feel middle class, perhaps upper-middle-class, but not even that upper. My guess is that it has a lot to do with social circles and where you live. The guy making $70k who lives in a modest house and whose friends all work at coffee shops feels rich; the guy making $300k who lives on the upper east side of Manhattan and whose friends are all VPs doesn't.
I know many people who make lots of money and are bitter about paying so much tax on it, but very few people who realize that the taxes they pay make a real difference in everyone's lives (especially the lives of those who are less fortunate). Or that the taxes they pay make possible all of the benefits the Federal, State, and local governments offer.
Sure, the government may not be the most efficient of entities, but I think it's difficult to make a serious argument that we would be better off without most of the services provided by the various levels of governments, or that they could easily be replaced. And none of these would be possible without some form of taxation (though how the taxes should be structured is up for reasonable debate).
While I believe that people should be fairly compensated for their hard work, and that we shouldn't penalize people for working harder, I also believe that it would benefit most people to stop and think about how much their taxes help to make this/any country a great place.
*disclaimer: this is mostly about the US, as this is my main experience, but I'd guess most of it applies to (at least some) other nations as well.
The Federal budget is mostly military spending (the US has no significant military adversaries) and Medicare spending (physicians, pharma and other "caregivers" prey on the elderly and have managed to channel this spending into profits... see Bush's prescription drug benefit/handout to those firms).
After that, the remaining 10% of the Federal budget probably makes a lot of sense. Sadly, most of what comes out of everyone's paycheck goes to fund military and medicare overspending.
Out of federal expenditures, about 45% of them are covered by defense, healthcare and medicare spending.
On your last point, the following pie chart seems to disagree: http://bit.ly/aG9Oj5
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System#Finan...
Hospitals are indirectly funded by many different sources, both public and private.
This isn't to say that Federal funding isn't sometimes useful. Federal central planning built the interstate highway system for military purposes, and this had the side effect of making suburban living desirable, draining the tax base from cities and destroying some urban environments, leading to urban crime, poverty, etc.
Nonetheless, the highways have probably been helpful to the economy as a whole even if they did destroy some cities along the way.
My point is mainly to highlight that the primary interface with government services should be the local and state level. That we get so disproportionally excited about Federal laws/elections/officials shows that politics is mostly for entertainment/signaling purposes and that the useful roles of government are unglamorous and are typically accomplished quite effectively by the local municipality.
Incidentally, today is garbage day. I derive tremendously more utility from garbage day than I do (or ever will) from the Iraq war, Afghanistan war or Social Security.
So why not do that, rather than demand that the tax level be increased?
That said, I think this a terrible argument. Changes to the tax code only have an effect if they take effect across the broad tax base. That said, maybe someone should start a "I'll pay higher income taxes if 1,000,000 people join me" petition on Pledgebank.
This is exactly the kind of comment that I feared we would see when articles like this start gaining traction. It's a cheese puff comment: it's got some taste, but it's empty. It has nothing to back it up, no content, no reasoning, no well crafted argument. It's just an empty "rah rah" type of slogan of the type that politicians regularly regurgitate. There is nothing new or clever about the comment, it's the sort of thing that's made the rounds elsewhere 100's of times. Being such a cheap, throwaway comment, it mostly/usually doesn't lead to particularly interesting discussions, as we can see here, despite a few good comments, but more zingers, one liners and similar "go home team!" cheering for one political side.
My point was simply that it's a bit silly to bemoan the low rate of taxes today unless you name a rate that you think is reasonable. Clearly you think 80% is unreasonable. If one only thinks a 1-2% increase is reasonable, then stipulate that, rather than making the grandiose claim that taxes should raised considerably. Isn't an 80% rate a considerable increase?
The fact is, most people think that 80% is grossly unreasonable. Why? At least there should be a principled argument, not just a rich person bragging (via a complaint) that he/she could afford higher taxes.
I never said that. I said that, as given, your comment had no argument or reasoning. This is the comment you should have originally posted, not your two word question which vaguely implied your real argument.
The idea that a person could personally contribute the equivalent of $100M of value in a year per their efforts and skills (which ARE distributed on a bell curve) is absurd. It is this mismatch between the distribution of ability and the distribution of wealth that the rich exploit. So for someone making $100M/year, a 90% tax rate is not unreasonable at all.
I don't know. I'm just pretty damn sure it's not what we're taxing the wealthy at now.
Disclaimer: I would be affected by these tax hikes.
The people I know making $70k don't feel rich–but that might be because they are married with kids. If the people you know are single, I could see how that would be different.
It's weird–I'm half-way between 70k and 300k now and I feel above middle-class but definitely not rich. We live modestly but have 4 kids and travel a lot.
(Personal anecdote which is not data: a lot of my family are autoworkers, and if you asked them they'd say they're doing pretty good, definitely middle class. One of my aunts on that side just got on an airplane for the first time in her life last year, because it was the first time she could afford the price of the ticket.)
This post is not meant to be snarky or insulting at all. But you are in the top few percent of the income distribution, and you don't feel rich because the things you spend the money on are things you think you should have. And you might be right! Because I think a life which involves family and travel would be a good thing, and that everyone should have that. But that doesn't mean most people can have it, or that those who can afford these things aren't rich.
Don't worry, I'm not insulted/offended at all. I'm fully aware that I'm in the top few percent of incomes.
And I should have qualified that–while I don't feel rich, I do consider myself extremely blessed (fortunate if you will). I should also add that I currently have no desire to become more rich (not that I don't want to succeed in business). I'm terrible at managing our money/budget at this level, so I see know need to add to it.
An interesting case are the locals here in Santa Cruz who don't work over the hill in Silicon Valley. There aren't that many good local jobs, and my sense is that the people who make $70k whose social circle is mostly other non-commuting locals feel well off, despite the fact that it's a pretty high-cost-of-living area--- because they know lots of surf bums, coffee shop employees, and people who have to commute from Watsonville because they can't afford to live in Santa Cruz or Capitola.
I'm always fascinated by the varying definitions of living modestly. I don't mean that as an attack on you in any way. I find that people definitions really do differ quite a bit. What's yours?
Then again, we're only staying here for 6 months. Wife and I both have used cars ('o6 & '04) that we bought cash. Home furnishings are all used/cheap as we've learned our children tend to destroy things. We don't buy many "nice/expensive" things other than my camera gear and my wife's shoes/clothes.
It still won't solve the traffic congestion problem though. That will take explicit toll fee for using the roads, and that won't be popular.
Division of labor and global trade has made us incredibly wealthy compared to the past. So focus on a niche and make people richer. Remember, self-sufficiency mean we have to make our own clothes, grow our own food, etc.
The belief that material wealth is always more valuable than being able to spend time doing what you want is astounding.
Instead he should be pushing the argument "Why the hell should I have to pay for all these government just because I'm more productive than other people? If I use $10,000 a year worth of government services why am I paying $200,000 for it while some other guy using $10,000 a year of government services pays nothing? Why can't the burden be spread more equally among all those who use government services instead of lumped almost entirely on the top 10%?"
That's the argument he should be pushing. Of course there are possible responses to that, but it's a better starting point for debate than "I only make $500K a year, you should tax the real rich, who are making $800K a year!"
While I feel sorry for the guy whose taxes are about to go up substantially
that's where you lost me.His taxes aren't going to go up...his tax CUTS are about to expire...as they were supposed to. The sunset clause was part of the original bill...instead of bitching that his taxes are going to go back to normal...he should be happy he got to enjoy this tax break for all these years.
And "substantially"? His taxes are only going up by ~3%
That isn't a meaningful distinction for individuals. It only means something for the government's budget outlook. It is a little silly for the law professor to complain about a tax increase without considering the alternatives, which are insolvency or drastic budget cuts. Regardless of the merits of the latter option, it's clearly not politically feasible.
We just witnessed one of the greatest free rides in world history, and this guy was a passenger - I'm not exactly brimming with sympathy.
Which is, like, $15,000 a year. That's substantial -- in fact it's more than most people pay in taxes at all!
We should start from the fundamental question: why should this guy pay more than Joe Schmo at all? Why shouldn't the tax bill be spread equally over everybody, so it's (say) ten thousand dollars per head? That would be what I call "fair".
It's also not possible because some people just aren't getting off their butts and earning $10K per head, but that should be considered a deviation from fairness. We should look down upon those with below-average incomes as jerks who aren't working hard enough to pay their share.
No, it isn't. That not how taxes work. His marginal rate for the highest bracket will go up, for his first 250k his taxes will be exactly the same. It's hard to take an argument seriously from someone about taxes being too high if they don't even know how they're computed.
> We should look down upon those with below-average incomes as jerks who aren't working hard enough to pay their share.
You need help, serious mental help.
If everyone is taxed at 15k a head, then the minimum that anyone can work for jumps to 30k a year, or 20k part time. That means hyper-inflation or mass unemployment. That means that college would incur an additional 60,000 in opportunity cost, costing this country a skilled labor base.
You still need people to man the circle Ks. If you suddenly have to mechanize all of these positions (because the price of labor has doubled or tripled), you end up with even higher unemployment. And I promise you, when you have 30% unemployment and people coming for your head, you will see armed revolt.
It's simple. You do not press on poor people because they are the foot soldiers in a revolution, and your soldiers are their brothers.
Let us leave aside "fair" or "unfair" for a moment.
The problem with a poll tax is that you can only raise the amount of money you can charge the poorest people you are taxing multiplied by the number of people you are taxing.
A tax scheme that operates on a percentage of income (or even increases that percentage as income increases) allows the government to maximize its income in the same way that having higher margin 'premium' products and lower margin "economy" products so rich people can pay more and poor people can pay less allows a business to maximize it's income.
I'm just pointing out that even before you get to talking about what's fair or what's right, you simply could not support a government as expensive as ours on a poll tax. - so there is a reason why we have a progressive tax rate that has nothing to do with perceived fairness.
In a distribution as heavily skewed as US income, "below-average" would probably be around 80% - 90% of the population. Perhaps you meant 'median' or something else other than 'average'.
First, the primary driver of this "inequality" is the widening gap between the rich and the poor in the US. The top 10% of earners in the US take home nearly 50% of the country's total income. Under a "flat tax" system (i.e. everyone pays 20%), they would still pay nearly 50% of the country's total income tax. Under our system they actually pay 70% of all taxes. Do you think it's "unequal" for people who take home more income to pay proportionally more income taxes?
Second, even people paying zero income tax pay ~15% of taxes on income for social security + medicare, as well as a disproportionate share of their income on regressive taxes, like sales tax and gas tax.
The argument for regressive taxes is also poor. Come to New Hampshire where there is no sales tax or W-2 income tax. The air is clean, the mountains well hiked and the people friendly. Take a look at the state's finances too. The regressive taxes there are on inheritance, dividends, investment income and a few things else I can't remember. That hits the rich far more than the poor.
The general public can only be convinced to vote for grandiose schemes when there is zero perceived cost. Since most US citizens pay nearly nothing in taxes, it's easy to get them to vote for such schemes. The tax system is designed to facilitate consent for such schemes, or at least to minimize the natural skepticism that any reasonable person would have about the ROI of most government endeavors.
Of course, you can't have negative ROI if your investment was $0, so why not cheer on the blow dried politicians and hope it works, after all someone else is paying for it.
* That would be what I call "fair".*
When I made $50,000/yr, the primary value I got from the government was some physical safety, some education, and roads so I could go to work and buy things.
When I made $500,000/yr, the primary value I got from the government was protection of my assets, access to an educated labor pool, and roads so I could transport my goods, so my workers and customers could get to them.
The value received from government doesn't correlate perfectly to income, but it does correlate strongly, and as such is a reasonable approximation of a fair price.
We should look down upon those with below-average incomes as jerks who aren't working hard enough to pay their share.
This is possibly the most disgusting thing I've ever seen. It's wrongheaded in so many ways that I hope you're a troll.
If you are not a troll you are a sociopath, and to be frank... your comments are so nonsensical that I doubt you'll ever have the "problem" of paying taxes that you fear.
Like Joe the Plumber, in this guy's imagination he has to deal with the burdens of a progressive tax system. Reality is a different story.
One point I'd make to up and coming entrepreneurs: taxes aren't going to be the burden you fear. When you're growing your company you'll pay relatively little personal or corporate income tax.
Personal income tax will be relatively low because most entrepreneurs would rather reinvest in their business than buy a $20,000 watch.
Corporate will be relatively low because you won't be sitting on the cash, you'll be hiring people, spending on infrastructure or advertising and otherwise growing the business. This means your annual profits will be tiny.
The vast majority of the value you accrue will be in the business itself, and you won't have to pay on those gains until you liquidate.
Frankly, I think these discussions are bad for HN not because it's a bad idea to discuss politics or economics, but because nearly everybody on this site would get more value from an article about marketing, productivity, coding, testing, launching products, or any other topic that can actually help an entrepreneur build their business, today.
That's an extremely important point.
I tell people: If you want to help startups, the tax rate does not matter hardly at all. While you are still a 'starup' you will pay very little in taxes, just 'cause you will make very little money that is not re-invested. The tax complexity makes a huge difference, though. Now, I'm sane so I pay an expert to deal with that sort of thing, but a complex tax code is worse than the costs of paying another expert.
A complex tax code, first, massively increases my risk. I know two people who will likely be in debit for the rest of their lives because they tried to do their taxes themselves while running a business. Now, I've got a professional, but there is always a chance they will screw it up. I'm on the hook for the money, no matter what. I can get out of my building lease and loans through bankruptcy, but tax debit is forever.
Next, a complex tax code makes it harder for me to plan out how to allocate my resources. With a complex tax code, it's often more profitable to play accounting games than to actually build something people want more efficiently than the competition, and I think that impoverishes us all.
Confusion is somewhat understandable when you consider that the opposite for both is "credit". When used with an article ("a credit"), it's the opposite of debit, a one-time addition to an account. When used without an article ("banks extend credit to borrowers"), it's the opposite of debt, a sum that is owed to you by other parties. English is a funny language.)
It's obnoxiously difficult to identify all of the taxes (especially state and local) that are relevant to your business, let alone to actually file and pay them (both of which can be harder than you'd think.)
Until there's an easy way to verify you're compliant, I don't think there's any viable option except to hire an accounting firm to ensure compliance. If you use standard accounting software (like quickbooks) and just want them to deal with filing and paying the taxes, the bill will be small.
I make more use of the accountant than that.. It's almost like having an experienced business person on 'pay by the hour' basis. A typical contract accountant has worked with more businesses than your typical businessperson. I mean, the accountant is not much help on marketing, product development, etc... but as for the mechanics of running the office, payroll, insurance, keeping the government officials besides the taxman at bay, etc... an accountant can be really, really useful, especially when you just want to know "how do other businesses solve this problem?"
I was simply trying to note that tax compliance is cheap enough that there's really no reason not to do it.
"Life is hard for me, too" is a lot easier to sympathize with (even if it's complete bullshit) than "I don't care if life is hard for you."
If his burn rate is $500k a year then he's not financially any different from anyone else who's burning theorugh their paycheck - he's just got different hobbies - he's not contributing more meaningfully to society or anything like that - so why not higher taxes?
-$60k/year for three children in private school -$50k building home equity -$50k in the 401k
But the real point is in the sections about having bought the house at the top of the market and the equity portfolio having fallen: Mr. Henderson feels poor because his net worth has dropped. He has less savings than he used to, so of course he feels he has to save several average family's annual income to catch up.
Being a high-powered law professor can't help, of course -- that's one of those jobs where your not-so-clever peers are big law firm partners and your half-decent students make your salary two years out of school. Even more so than the average 99%er, law professors have a ginormous amount of keeping-up-with-the-jones' self-pity.
Assume a scenario where a simplified tax (your choice of methods such as flat, no-income-but-higher-sales-tax, etc.) exists such that, say, 10 hours of time is enough to prepare a high net worth individuals' return.
Even if the net taxes were a little higher, productivity would go up because this busywork which does nothing for the economy disappears.
And since many CPA firms would be getting less hours, they could go and do something productive as well.
But realize that when you argue for a simplified tax, you're saying we need to get rid of the many incentives baked into the current code. These run the gamut, including things like:
Investing (lower capital gains rate + ability to deduct losses from gains)
Education (credits/deductions for education spending + student loan interest)
Homeownership (mortgage interest deduction - just imagine home prices without it)
Alternative energy (credits for purchasing solar panels/green cars)
Charitable giving
And so on... I'm not saying that all of these credits/deductions are needed, just that their absence would cause changes to the US far bigger than your "lots of accountants +entrepreneurs would have some more free time" intended effect.
That little snippet gives the whole game away. We have a strange situation in which Michael O'Hare, speaking as an ostensible advocate of "equity" and "the poor", nevertheless casually mentions that he would not pay attention to a word coming out of the mouth of an actual poor person, and that only a law school professor is worth listening to.
Of course, he wouldn't frame it that way. There is a tacit and unspoken mental calculation in which "Limbaugh listener" cancels out and reverses the street cred of "high school dropout", and in which "rich" reverses the intellectual cred of "law professor". So he feels fully entitled in trashing a poor person who does not share his views.
He does not spare one moment to consider that perhaps his views are a function of his power and social class as a Berkeley professor, rather than the outcome of some Platonic reasoning process. He believes what he believes and mouths what he mouths because that's what everyone else around him believes, and because political deviation is punished with social ostracism.
In particular, he is one of those who calls most loudly for "equity" without practicing it himself in his treatment of others.
The point is that there are other things in life that people value beside income. Income can be quantified, so we tend to fixate on that. But what about things like looks? Or IQ? Or power? Or status? Like the status to get people to take you seriously. Especially the last.
That can't be taxed, at least not directly. Imagine how Harvard professors would howl if Harvard degrees were handed out willy nilly, or redistributed from the (no doubt privileged) people who'd earned them to the unprivileged who hadn't. Imagine if column inches of New York Times columnists were taxed and redistributed to people who don't have as much of a say in national affairs.
The narrow focus on income happens for a reason. People who have more status than money (like O'Hare and Delong) are using the government to attack people who have more money than status. There is no question that Brad Delong will come out better in this trade, because he and those like him are the ones dictating its terms.
First, his jab at entrepreneurs who "extract surplus value" is an appeal to the core tenant of Marxism: that all profit is an exploitation and an unfair "extraction of value" from labor. I don't want to have a knee-jerk reaction to his argument just because of that, but it doesn't set a good tone for me.
Second, part of the problem I have with the tax increase is this: who knows what all that money will be used for? It could be used for taking care of the great unwashed masses (disdainful much?), or it could just as easily be used to invade more foreign countries in the name of "freedom", prop up outdated and failing industries, or bail out gamblers on Wall Street. The government of the last twenty years seems to have been shockingly bad at allocating the ridiculous amounts of money they collect from us; why should we give them more?
Law firm partners, really, are a paradigmatic example of surplus value extraction: law firms get paid by people who produce things to play negative-sum games on their behalf. And while I think it's very wrong to say that all profit is an extraction of value from labor, you could hardly find a purer example of value extraction than a law firm associate being paid <$100/hour and billed out at >$300/hour...
Edit: Seriously, markdown doesn't work?
It's for this reason that I find the concept of a "flat tax" so compelling.
There are plenty of holes in implementing a flat-tax, but fundamentally everybody putting an equal share of their income into the pool feels right to me.