Comment by xenadu02 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by xenadu02 | Hacker News Reader

By all accounts (and I have no personal knowledge here) Steve could be a jerk, or at least very demanding. Steve was definitely successful.

Being a jerk != being successful!

Having a great product eye and good design sense are excellent traits to emulate. Having "strong opinions, loosely held" is another great trait to emulate. Being honest and direct when something isn't good is also a great trait to emulate. Demanding people do their best is another great trait to emulate.

Being a jerk (at least under certain circumstances) is orthogonal and unrelated.

Unfortunately far too many people mistake correlation for causation and think being a demanding jerk is the key to success. First: you are no Steve Jobs. Second: that isn't what made him successful.

(Being direct and brutally honest can also come off as being a jerk. We have lots of pressure to be positive / supportive and avoid social conflict. It is always easier to say "that's great" or "nice job" than give actual constructive feedback, especially when the recipients are likely to be defensive about it. It is critical for startups to avoid this and be brutally honest with themselves about the product!)

Being successful does not excuse being a jerk and people behaviours/relationships are not to be mistaken with statistical behaviours/relationships (like correlation and causation).

Don't defend him while trying to separate the fact that he was the king of jerks because you have spent big money on his products. Does not work that way. Sorry.

"One time, my wife, then fiancée, and I were meeting with Steve at Apple, and he wanted me to do a keynote that happened to be scheduled on the same day as our wedding. With a big smile and full of charm, he suggested that we postpone it. We declined, but he kept pressing. Eventually my wife countered with a suggestion that if he really wanted “her” John so much, he should loan John Lassiter to her media company for a day of consulting. Steve went from full charm to ice cold really damn quick. "

You have to consider his background when you say this. He is super amazing as is, and 10x more compared to how he started.

> Don't defend him while trying to separate the fact that he was the king of jerks because you have spent big money on his products. Does not work that way. Sorry.

You sound like a jerk.

Does it help if I show you how successful I am ?

You are my hero :-)

Sorry, not very productive, but you made me smile

success is irrelevant :P

But only to the successful.

TBH, yes. Being direct and abrasive is much easier to handle when it is also combined with usually being right (and a willingness to change when not right).

If I put all my charm on and ask you to postpone your wedding to work for me without giving you anything in return I am not being direct and abrasive. To be clear, steve jobs was not direct and abrasive. He was a jerk.

Or a SOB if you prefer.

It's like the asshole boss version of 'Sexual Harassment and You'[0].

    - Be Charismatic
    - Be Successful
    - Don't Be Unsuccessful

[0]: https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/tv-funhouse-se...

Many people seem to love to look up to jerks. Look at the current resident of the White House for example. I've seen it in academia as well and I don't understand it. There was someone in the department I got my phd from that I saw be a total jerk to people for no reason and some people still worshiped him.

Probably some primitive instinct that looks up to the alpha of the group.

Agree- maybe for protection?

I don't know. That alpha male stuff is mostly bull. And It isn't like all people who are assholes and have people look up to them are actually good or "alpha" in any way. And why do some people look at people like this and say, "fuck that guy?"

I suspect you are right- this is actually what's at work. If you are willing to be a jerk you can get people to follow you. It's been a real eye-opener learning this, and I've been alive for a while.

Prolly why I always finish last lol.

Thank you for this. Getting lost in ego is a common trap for smart people in powerful positions.

One can be brutally honest in a nonpersonal way, with non-sarcastic humor, with lightness and friendliness.

Including appreciation for already existing effort, adding reasoning, logic, and vision in the communication go a long way.

Edit: added appreciation :)

Indeed. Diplomacy is worth a lot.

Yes, I think he was successful even though he was a jerk from time to time. That trait surely cost him some years. But it also shows how smart he must have been to compensate for that.

I think his success gave him a shield from consequences, so it was easy for him to become a jerk. It's the same theory as the reason that the most attractive people are often jerks. No one is willing to push back.

From what I've heard, he was always a jerk, even during his Atari days.

> It's the same theory as the reason that the most attractive people are often jerks

Not true. Attractive people tend to be treated nicer and think that’s the norm for behavior.

I don't know what you're referring to, but here is an study that supports my belief: https://example123456789615.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/holt...

The Steve Jobs “hero / shithead” rollercoaster was real, and after riding high for a long time, I was now on the down side

This doesn't sound so much like an admirable quality as much as it sounds like a symptom.

Disclaimer: This is an opinion and I’m not purporting this as fact, since folks don’t know the difference these days.

Based on his reactions to social situations, I truly believe he was on the autism spectrum, and that he suffered from lifelong reactive attachment disorder. To some degree, I can understand the disdain others feel for him, but I also can’t fully understand it either. It’s not like anyone was suckered into Apple not knowing how he was. I feel that if you signed up to work there, you were signing up for his uncompromising vision. People with uncompromising visions are a lot like him from my observation.

Why is anything you just asserted any more valid than someone claiming that being a jerk is useful trait in becoming successful in business? Just because you used 'orthogonal' in a fun context doesn't mean you've given evidence that your assertion is valid.

It might well be useful. You'll get challenged a lot less if people fear you and your power. But that doesn't mean it's necessary, or even that it's not counterproductive to greater success. Even in the post, Carmack alludes to a couple battle he lost with Steve where Carmack's view was eventually vindicated.

By the way, you criticize the previous commenter's assertion, but you haven't provided any rationale on why they might be mistaken.

Not OP, and even though I agree with them (that it _is_ orthogonal), I think the burden of proof should be with the original claimer, rather than the refuter needing to prove a negative.

Unfortunately comment sections usually don't work like that :(

I kind of agree, but it's really just a discussion, which I feel has a lower bar than a formal debate. If the refuter thought the argument was weak, they could have simply responded with their point of view and some evidence, rather than complaining. It's not like the OP was making claims on hidden truths.

>By the way, you criticize the previous commenter's assertion, but you haven't provided any rationale on why they might be mistaken.

Fine. John Rockefeller, Henry Clay Frick, Steve Cohen, Bill Gross, LBJ, Larry Ellison, Pablo Escobar, Donald Trump, Bo Xilai, Harvey Weinstein, Vladamir Putin. And those are just a small fraction of the HUGE assoles. Not even run of the mill assholes like Jobs.

Recent history (and ancient history) is filled with successful assholes. So, my rationale that it's not something that can be asserted without evidence is simply the prevalence. Which, to be honest, probably didn't need to be said. This is common knowledge.

Tell that to Linus Torvalds.

https://www.wired.com/2013/07/linus-torvalds-right-to-offend...

The difference is that Linus actually knows what he's talking about and the buck stops with him.

I wonder if it has something to do with stress and being highly involved in a subject.

Let's say I get involved in a pet project, put lots of bloody time on it, and get involved on it mentally. I can become a jerk when someone criticize it.

Taking critics is good. But it is very hard when you put lots of effort. Steve Jobs did put lots of work into Apple. That could made some of his reactions a backfire that people perceived badly.

I don't think its so much that he's a jerk - it's just that he did not try to hide it. He's a smart guy - he could have covered it all up - and there are plenty of people who do.

Maybe a better word to describe Jobs is honest.

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