Xerox calls off $6.1B sale to Fujifilm | Hacker News Reader

Xerox calls off $6.1B sale to Fujifilm

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132 pointsdanso58 comments

Somewhat off topic, but If you're interested in the history of modern computing and not already familiar with the Xerox PARC [0] story, you should know that Xerox has a fascinating history of computer research innovation, and is often regarded as one of the real major driving forces behind the P.C. as we know it.

An interesting account (as well as a great deal more about the rest of the history of modern computers) is documented in the book "The Dream Machine" [1], which I highly recommend if you find this sort of stuff interesting.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PARC_(company)

[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/722412.The_Dream_Machine

Dealers of Lightning[0] is also pretty fantastic and covers PARC in good detail.

[0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1101290.Dealers_of_Light...

Dealers of Lighting is great, and is good as an audiobook as well.

I enjoyed reading "Fumbling the Future: How Xerox Invented, then Ignored, the First Personal Computer"[0]. At the end of the first half of the book, you wonder how anything can stop Xerox. In the second half, you learn how Xerox can stop Xerox.

[0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/638812.Fumbling_the_Futu...

Bitsavers is stuffed with all their research documents around Lisp, Smalltalk, Mesa and Mesa/Cedar.

https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_xerox

Graphical workstations, REPL, IDE like features with edit-and-continue capabilities, memory safe systems programming with GC, interactions between GUI components on the UI,...

Many of the ideas that inspired research at ETHZ and DEC as well.

That archive/bitsavers link looks really interesting, thanks!

I worked for Xerox in 1979. They were totally focused on copiers. The management structure in the field had no idea what to do with the new technology. Classic Innovator's Dilemma.

Branch staff found out about new Xerox products in the trade press, not from sources inside the company. Xerox withheld crucial technical information from its customers.

Every new hire was issued a copy of "The Billions Nobody Wanted", a great book that ironically warned against the very malady that Xerox succumbed to.

http://archive.is/cfPJC

Can anyone close to the Xerox/Fujifilm situation comment on why this matters/doesn't matter/is relevant?

Two old tech companies want to merge. An activist investor blocked this, figuring there is more to be made milking the technology on the way down. This can happen in software too.

Is fujifilm really "on the way down"? They seem pretty well diversified with some good product lines. Hell, I own one of their recent cameras.

Xerox I won't argue with, but they're still not exactly on death watch. Just get the sense your comment is a little negative, like they've both obviously failed and all that is left is milking the dying husks. Fujifilm could quite likely outlast facebook. It will almost certainly outlast the likes of snapchat, IMO. Old != bad.

Fujifilm also is not just electronics.

Believe it or not Fujifilm also make a range of cosmetics - http://www.fujifilm.com/products/skincare/history/ https://www.nippon.com/en/features/c00511/

There's the sort of fact that is surprising initially but is remarkably mundane and expected thing for a chemical company to do. I do expect them to have some other branding though.

I even use their film still. Granted they are discontinuing most of their film lines this year but still a very relevant company, especially with their mirrorless cameras

Disappointing, but unfortunately not surprising. They have been winding down their film production for a while now. First it was Astia and some of the oddball LF sizes, then it was FP100C in 4x5, then the 3x4, then FP3000B, and it just keeps rolling on.

I've been expecting this for a while and have a good stash of film tucked away that will carry me for quite a while. I have about 150 rolls of various slide films in 120 and maybe 200 rolls of B+W in 120 and 35mm. I'll probably still try to tuck away another 100 rolls or so in the deep freezer if I can. Unlike FP-100C, slide+negative films can be stored for a long time (practically indefinitely) if kept cool/frozen.

At this point I am getting worried about how long E-6 processing will be around though. There are DIY kits but they are not archival-grade stable.

Fuji is also terrible at communicating these discontinuations to their customers. Several times now it's simply been "oops, we're out, this will be the last shipment", and only to their Asia distribution chain at that.

If no one is buying it - or not enough to sustain production, its going to go away.

Yeah, I was gonna say. It's sad, but one can't expect a company to keep an entire production line open just for a rapidly dwindling number of enthusiasts. They have better ways to deploy their resources. It would be arguably negligent for them to not do so.

They probably shuttered the production facility years ago and are just running out their inventory. It might actually be quite lucrative, if evil, to buy some for later resale.

Kodak "rightsized" their film production a few years ago, and film sales are actually on an incline since then (both due to enthusiasts and professional cinematographers). They're actually bringing back various classic film stocks as well as introducing new ones based on modern R&D. Ilford has shed their financial legacy (and toxic waste-dump of a site) and is doing better these days too.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/9503675822/analog-revival-incr...

https://www.dpreview.com/news/1282034127/kodak-alaris-is-bri...

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/features/gr...

Fuji just can't get their act together, and to be honest they've never been a very well-run company. Amazing products (best-in-class film, cameras, lenses, etc) but extremely shitty marketing and distribution, particularly outside the Asia market. They're finally sorta getting it together with the digital side of the company (the X-series are great and have a big following in NA/Europe) but the film side has been a mess for 50+ years. Probably a lesson in there for the entrepreneurs of HN - along with the importance of producing the appropriate amount of product.

The really aggravating thing is their instant packfilms (peel-apart Polaroid film) - they literally are making the emulsion anyway for their Instax series (which have been selling like crazy for years), they just need to produce different sizes of film, which has traditionally not been A Big Deal for film companies, up until Fuji made it one. They could increase their volume quite a bit if they would just restart production of the standard film sizes that Polaroid, MF, and LF shooters have been using for decades, but they only make the proprietary one that fits their cameras.

> Fuji just can't get their act together, and to be honest they've never been a very well-run company.

This is a more than strange statement to make in a thread mentioning Kodak, where one of those two companies successfully managed the transition from film to digital, and the other went bankrupt.

https://leaderonomics.com/business/kodak-vs-fujifilm-success... is the first hit on "fujifilm vs kodak", but there's quite a few there with the same message...

Fujifilm didn't so much manage the transition from film to digital as manage the transition from film to other things that could make use of their technical capabilities in making film.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2012/01/how-fujif...

Not to take away from their cameras. I use them and am a fan but they're pretty much a niche.

If you dont invest in your products what do you expect? Film sales are actually on the rise globally and Fujifilm is just letting everyone down.

Make the move to digital. Their cameras and lenses are nothing short of amazing, and the sensors are tuned to replicate all of their film variants.

Not the GP, but I shoot with an X-Pro2 when I'm using digital, but I prefer working with film and I'm still pissed that Acros is being discontinued.

The X-Pro2 is a beautiful little camera with a great personality, and the whole X series is just so .. classy, both the hardware and the results. I have an older x100 and people used to come up and ask me about it!

One of the reasons I love the series so much is that they're so unassuming, almost looking like fashion accessories because compared to other ranges they just look so good. So people don't shy away from them like they do if you walk around with some giant DSLR like a tourist or some wannabe vlogger. And yet they are capable of just gorgeous pictures, so there's this wonderful nexus between aesthetic form and function that I don't see from any other major manufacturer.

And the pictures they take... one of the little joys I get as a casual photographer is when I take a photo of someone, and they love it so much that they immediately post it as their profile picture. This happened more often with the x100 than any other camera, by some combination of having the thing present in the first place, people not being scared of it, and the charming pictures it takes. Good feelings.

I've been pretty tempted by the X100F and if there's an update this year I may not be able to resist. No-one ever complimented my Sony...

Based on my experience with an F30 ages ago I'd expect that their sensors are very competitive. Unfortunately for many remaining uses of a DSLR, the X series isn't that competitive for most of the same reasons the other mirrorless systems aren't that competitive.

The small size almost positions the X series as a modern day Leica rangefinder. It's perfect for vacation and street photography, even for more intimate things like weddings... but Nikon and Canon have the autofocus thing locked up (probably with a mountain of patents). Unfortunately if you're shooting weddings you'll want that extra low light capability of a full-frame sensor and mature phase detection AF. If you're doing studio stuff, you probably don't care too much but you would miss the ubiquitous Canikon accessories.

Me? I shoot concerts (which is probably why I don't wax nostalgic about film too much). I'd love something inconspicuous like an X series, but I'm almost always shooting at high ISO. If I'm using a manual focus lens I'd miss the instant feedback of an optical viewfinder. If I'm using an AF lens I'd miss the performance of the current crop of full frame DSLRs. In general I'd miss the selection of native lenses available to the dominant DSLR lens mounts.

If there's any worry about the longevity of Fujifilm it would be interesting to contemplate a Fuji/Sigma or Fuji/Cosina merger IMO. Sigma's got some crazy sensor technology, and Cosina's got a recent history of making some amazing lenses. Or Fuji/Ricoh/Pentax.

Their sensors are competitive, if not state of the art - a sentiment you can repeat about almost every other aspect of raw performance: AF, EVF quality, speed, etc. Their real appeal isn't in the specs but in the way everything hangs together in a cohesive, opinionated, attractive, omakase whole.

Despite the name ("X-Pro2") I don't think Fujifilm are actually targeting "real" pros with this range. They're not workhorse cameras and even the X-Pro makes obvious concessions to functionality in favour of aesthetics. But they are not toys! I'm having trouble thinking of who their market actually is off the top of my head. A certain kind of enthusiast. People who seriously care about both form and function. The kind of person who would never use a factory camera strap (i'm thinking Artist & Artisan). I don't know, maybe I'm projecting :P

I know exactly what you mean about high ISO (i have an a7sii) and you're right that any of the X-series would be a poor choice - that's not really their bag. It's the camera you'd take backstage, though, and that wouldn't be confiscated by security...

I sort of agree with you. I have a full-frame Canon system and that's what I go to when I want the most capability/versatility and I don't care about size or weight.

But my Fujifilm XE-3 is what I take with me the vast majority of the time if I'm not shooting action or long tele/very wide angle. And, yes, it's in part because it feels like a rangefinder in a lot of ways. (Never had a Leica but used a Kodak Retina for many years along with various other cameras like Olympus XAs.)

Sure. I've learned that I really dislike bringing my DSLR with me on vacation. Unfortunately, for me at least, the X series is too expensive to justify buying into as I've already sunk a bunch of money into the Nikon ecosystem.

And, yeah, there were plenty of rangefinders (even Nikon and Canon made them)... but I referenced Leica because Fuji is targeting an enthusiast market with the X series that Canikon are largely ignoring (counterpoint: the Nikon Df).

I can't really disagree. I have way too much money in both Canon and Fujifilm gear for the amount I use it. That said, if I were forced to choose, I'd go with my Fujifilm setup even though it meant I couldn't do certain things.

I had to at least get a look at what you gentlemen appreciate so much. Thanks for writing it up.

https://mirrorlesscomparison.com/preview/fuji-x100f-vs-xpro2...

Also, Fuji are streets ahead in the UX department. Physical controls for iso/shutter/exp comp, aperture on the lens. There's no confusion about modes and what the camera is in charge of.

If I wasn't so heavily invested in Nikon glass I'd have an X-T2.

I'm a long time X100 (and Nikon DSLR) and now X100F user. I love this camera.

X100F fixes almost all the flaws in the X100 plus gives you a digital converter and more film simulations.

With the two physical converters that I already had for the old X100 I can now cover a range of 28mm-100mm eqv. which is perfect for travel.

I'm sure you already know the sorts of tricks the leaf shutter will let you do. Well on the X100F you can use the on board flash in manual mode now too.

Oh and as an added bonus you can stick an EF-X20 on the bottom and slave it off the on board flash for a tiny twin flash camera in a tiny package. It works perfectly in full sunlight (manual only though).

(In case anyone is wondering the twin flash thing is for flat on-axis fill similar to a ring light in bright sunlight. So flat light but with no shadows as you'd get from a single fill flash).

Lovely stuff.

If you do medium format there is not really much choice for medium digital format. And lets not even talk about large format. The world of photography goes beyond 35mm.

There's limited choice, but Fuji provides one of those choices (http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/gfx/index.h...).

I am well aware of that. But its not even real medium format. There is no camera with digital sensor of 6x7 actual size out there. what you have instead is digital backs that adapt on older film cameras.

> There is no camera with digital sensor of 6x7 actual size

Well .. true, but mostly because that is a HUGE size for a digital sensor. The only "medium" format digital I'm familiar with is the pentax 645, it is smaller than that old film and yet still 50MP (!). The tech will only improve.

I wouldn't hold your breath for any sensor of the size of the old film you're talking about. There's a certain threshold above which there are diminishing returns. I suppose there are some cinema sensors being made at 70mm but they are very niche and ruinously expensive. My money might be on the 645 size becoming standard, and it's a reasonable one.

> not even real medium format

To be fair there is no "real" medium format. It basically means "bigger than 35mm".

The real medium format is based on actual standard film size. 120 and 220. They are clearly defines and medium format starts from 6x6 as a square shape, and then goes beyond. Its clearly not just "bigger than 35mm", while its what Fuji wants you to believe.

as i mentioned there is a clear market for actual digital medium format using digital backs you can plug on old hasselblad or equivalent twin lenses models. So this is not fiction or something. And sensor size is not about pixels, you get a very different depth of field with medium and large format. thats is why we still use them.

That's not how depth of field works. DoF, simplistically, is governed by the usable angle of light at the back of the lens - the more obtuse, the more "DoF". Larger sensors (like your 6x7) might be useful if there are limits in sensor resolution, necessitating the sensor being placed further back so the light can shine over a larger area. But if the sensor is higher resolution (as I said the 645z is 50MP) then it can be closer and capture the same DoF. If technology improves enough then we might be able to deliver your "medium format" DoF with a 10mm*10mm sensor placed right up close to the lens. You would not be able to tell the difference.

The 645z and x1d are delivering the medium format DoF right now. Things can be improved upon, sure, but insisting on a certain sensor size is misguided. That size was necessary simply because of the limitations of film chemistry. Remove this limitation and the sensor size becomes less relevant.

No. DoF is also a factor of sensor size/film surface area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_of_field#Relationship_of...

http://www.uscoles.com/depthoffield.html

I made the switch over to film from years of shooting digital. I’ve fallen in love with the colours and contrast that the Fuji films give. The blues and greens really pop but overall it’s a muted colour palette - love it.

I can see why they are doing this and Kodak isn’t but it is sad. I’ll probably end up buying up a bunch of Fujifilm and freezing it as well. A lot of the film from Fuji I see in stores is set to expire late 2019.

You may want to invest in a generator as well in case your power ever goes out (and an auto-start and automatic transfer switch to go with it). That would be a waste to lose and a lot harder to replace than a freezer full of food.

Unlike food, film will survive being defrosted and refrozen, as long as it's kept dry.

Film doesn't even need to be cold-stored unless you're wanting to store it long term. It should last until the expiry date (usually a year or two) at room temperature without any ill effects.

The other poster is correct that film isn't harmed by a brief defrosting as long as you don't get condensation on it (it's packaged in airtight plastic canisters or foil wrappers). As long as you don't let it get hot like sitting in a car or something...

But unrelated note, get an upright/freestanding/chest deep freezer. With a normal fridge/freezer, when you open the door all the cold falls out. The upright freezers form a "well" that keeps the cold in much better. They will hold a freeze for at least 24-48 hours if you don't open the lid, although much longer and you would probably want to be looking for a generator.

I buy hundreds of dollars of their instant camera film packs per year. I hope nothing happens to that.

Instax is doing great. They are discontinuing other sizes of film.

Rumor repeated on r/analog is that they have discontinued producing any film about a decade ago. What we're still buying is the stockpile they froze when caught with pants down by demand dropping by two orders of magnitude. The rumor nicely explains why it's the films that gained popularity that get discontinued first.

Fujifilm is arguably the largest vender of medical imaging software in the world.

Icahn isn't looking to milk the technology on the way down. He's looking for a higher priced flip near-term.

Xerox is going to very likely immediately move into an auction sale. They'll probably find a higher valuation for the sale in the next quarter or two.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/14/xerox-abandons-planned-deal-...

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-44104809

Icahn is sort of an anti Buffett.

Surprised that Xerox hasn't gotten into Docusign, industrial 3D printing/scanning, PDF automation, general small manufacturing robotics ...

Hah. I figured Xerox was dead, but didn't know it yet back in 2011 when they outsourced their product engineering to HCL (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/xerox-explores-outsourcing...). You can't enter new markets if you don't own your own engineering.

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