Apple faces class action lawsuit over failing MacBook butterfly keyboards
9to5mac.com
9to5mac.com
It is really incredible how low Apple has managed to drive people's expectations wrt keyboards. I feel like Thinkpad keyboards have gone steadily downhill since the ~2005 T4x series (I still use a T43 on a regular basis, and do side-to-side comparisons between it and newer machines). Macbook keyboards by comparison are nearly unusable, unergonomic garbage: key caps not shaped, linear action with very harsh bottoming, comically oversize trackpad that you always manage to accidentally press with your palm while typing, sharp edge case that pokes into your wrists. Typing on a Macbook is slow and results in pain halfway through the day. Even the bottom of the barrel Acer Aspire One with the flat key caps (again, a machine I actually own and regularly use and can make comparisons against) provides a better typing experience.
You could have stopped there.. The entire Apple Product line is the same way, Is it proof positive that Marketing Drives the world not quality, technology, or anything else.
Apple is all marketing and no substance
I think it would be correct to say that this is what Apple has slowly become. In the past, it was clearly innovative. The original Mac was incredibly innovative in 1984. The iPhone was innovative back in 2007. But Apple has not had a new idea in the last 10 years, and it has shifted from technology innovation to marketing. Nowadays, it lags in almost every segment, but it still has great marketing, and its reputation has not yet caught up with the sad reality of 2018.
Apple also has a mountain of cash. They could invest in innovative new technologies. But they won't. Partly that's because of the way Tim Cook's salary has been structured. Following a somewhat superficial and short-term understanding of the phrase "share-holder value", his pay is partly based on how much he can boost the stock price. And he's got no real incentive to engage in a massive R&D program, since the results would only pay off in the long run, after he had retired.
I'm currently using a MacBook Pro. I'd like to stick with Mac's, but that decision is very difficult to justify right now. For less money I could get a great Linux laptop.
Think of all the other technologies companies that are currently dwarfed by the iPhone's sales: Tesla, SpaceX, Blue Origin, Microsoft, Google, Netflix, etc etc. Are these all insignificant? Nope...
I think a big issue for me, and for others on here, is that we're no longer Apple's demographic. Their machines work for me still so I'm not in the same boat as most but Apple is now making computers for everyone, not just the creative professionals or developers. The things we don't care about (Touch Bar, for example) are things that I'm constantly hearing good things about from others. In my case, I actually love the TB because it's great for Final Cut and any other media tools I use.
Apple is the one company where "shareholder value" is not a driving factor.
I agree fully that the keyboards are hot garbage, though. I can type well on them, they're just painful over time due to the harshness you mention.
The 2016 made it so large that it was constantly reacting whilst typing. It was infuriating. I've almost never managed that on the 2015 or earlier models even though I would sometimes touch the touchpad whilst typing. I sold the '16 because of the broken keyboard - but the stupid touchpad and touchbar contributed to my hating the whole machine. Now on a 2015 again.
Even though Apple touchpads were the best I've always preferred a trackpoint to any touchpad, and their keyboards are leagues ahead of anything Apple. Mind even Thinkpad keyboards used to be better. Someone needs to figure out how to fit a Thinkpad keyboard and trackpoint into a Macbook Pro :)
There seem to be two kinds of typists: ones that rest their palms, and ones that hover their palms. If you hover, you will never encounter these issues. I rest my palms to the degree that any touchpad that is not recessed gets unintentional input. I also believe, based on personal experience, that the ergonomics of a pointing device are in general inversely proportional to the amount of hand/arm movement, so larger touchpads are going to be less ergonomic than smaller ones (a corollary is that touchpad gestures will give you RSI). Having three buttons for a pointing device is essential. Macbooks fail on all counts on these criteria. The closest to ideal touchpads that I have encountered are on the T4x/T6x series Thinkpads - 2" large and deeply recessed. Unfortunately they only have two buttons.
Smaller touchpads have always been more uncomfortable and harder to use for me.
Actually I think that Lenovo finally nailed the keyboard in 2017/2018. I think it's a lot better than even the venerable IBM Thinkpad keyboards. The travel/response feels a lot better to me.
What kills it for me is the rearrangement needed by going from 7 row (with web forward/back and a proper editing block), to 6 rows with keys jammed in wherever they can make a space.
If they had done the redesign of keycaps and backlighting, but kept 7 row, it would have been stellar...
Whether Macbook Pro or the extended iMac keyboard they seem designed to be nice to look at with no consideration of what they are like to actually type on.
I bought an external mechanical. "OK" is enough for when travelling or browsing.
IMO the keyboard and trackpad on the last last-gen MBP were as good or better than anything on the market. This is what makes the new ones even more of a heartbreaker to me. I don't want to buy a new computer and feel like it's a step down from what I was using before, especially such a precipitous drop for what was literally my favorite aspect of the old hardware. It also feels like a bad precedent, a move in a direction that I personally don't want any further moves to be made in. I've been using MBPs for so long and have generally been so happy with them. It sucks that I feel like something I've trusted for so long may be moving away from me, like being in what you thought was a great relationship, then getting dumped out of the blue.
Hardly, but then I don't say or even imply that by mentioning I bought an external mechanical. I bought it during my brief spell with the 2016 where I was especially disappointed by the keyboard. I still bought Apple even though the keyboard was a mark against. It fits with work and I prefer MacOS/*nix to Windows.
I've never been disappointed by Thinkpad keyboards, so it appears someone is able to make a laptop keyboard, the brand has received praise for the keyboard for decades. They (even the recently redesigned one that I see as a step backwards, mainly from poorer layout) are an order of magnitude above anything Apple has used in years. I've always been a bit surprised since my first Macbook years ago that they haven't been trying to surpass Thinkpad for "keyboard experience".
To me it seems that Apple should care highly about keyboards as they clearly care enough to be opinionated about many aspects of their products. They don't seem the least bit interested in anything but thinness in keyboards even on the iMac. The keyboard on my 2015 is OK, so is the keyboard on the iMac. Neither is good in my limited personal opinion, but OK enough for daily use.
That the new one felt worse, was surprisingly loud, and turned out to be ridiculously fragile in a normal environment is quite some achievement.
Keyboards always get pretty diverse opinions so I doubt we'll agree. Touchpads are much easier - Apple have always done consistently better than anyone until the '16 which became newly prone to false activations.
For instance, I have the Vimium plugin installed and I use the home row keys to navigate web pages. It's more efficient but clearly I'm asking for trouble by working this way, given the failure rate of the new keyboard.
Apple needs to go back to the drawing board and create an ergonomic keyboard with lots of focus group feedback from software engineers, writers, and content creators, and stop treating the MBP as if it's a consumption device (that's what the iPad is for).
Also, $900 vs $2,599+tax.
Separately, there are do-it-yourself modifications to stick one onto e.g. a -30 model ThinkPad.
I've held off due to the circa $2000 price (it's been a tough winter, financially), one generation older tech stack, and still somewhat under-performant display. But I really hope to pick one up before they're gone. Even this ThinkPad "chicklet" keyboard I'm typing on doesn't compare.
I wish -- hope -- Lenovo might continue to include one such model in the lineup, each year (T25 -- 25 for twenty-fifth anniversary). For people who really rely on heavy -- and comfortable, fast, accurate, reliable -- use of the keyboard, there is no comparison.
My W520's keyboard is pretty fantastic. I just need something that travels better (doesn't have to be a "wafer") and has longer battery life.
I ended up returning the MBP for a refund anyway as I really didn't enjoy the new butterfly keyboard. I found it quite painful to type on for more than about 20 minutes.
I strongly feel the latest generation MBP is a step backwards in what a "professional" wants and needs from such a machine. Sure make the consumer MacBook model as thin as possible but don't butcher the Pro model to save 0.2mm by introducing a god awful keyboard and removing a bunch of crucial ports so we have to rely on bloody dongles!
Ninja Edit: Forgot to mention how much I hated the TouchBar. What sucks is the actual idea of the touchbar is pretty nice but replacing the function keys with it on a Pro machine is idiotic. They could have easily added the touchbar while keeping the function keys but decided not to probably to be minimal/simple.
I keep hearing this. I've been using the new keyboard for > 1 yr and I literally have no complaints. I have adjusted my typing style to a bit lighter of a touch as the keys don't travel as far, but I've not experienced any discomfort.
But the clicky punch immediately degrades even if you don't get a nanoparticle under one of your keys. They regress quickly to a mushy tactile feel.
It's as if nobody at Apple tested the keyboard for more than a week, nor outside of a pristine cleanroom. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that's the root cause of all this, because I could see why someone would think the keyboard was an upgrade if that was the extent of the QA testing.
If the keyboard felt like it did the first week but for four years, I would consider it an upgrade. But it's a comically far cry from that.
There was a learning curve teaching my fingers to use two distinct pressure techniques depending on the surface.
I've had keys stick and unstick. I'm glum about it. Feels like a matter of time before one doesn't unstick.
Of course I am typing this is on an mechanical keyboard with Cherry Switches, which is the only way to type
When you push hard enough to move them, they pass through an optical sensor and then can move a lot further, so there's effectively no equivalent to keys bottoming out, or the feeling of jamming your finger into a hard surface.
It's such a good design to invert both those problems and make them non-problems, I'm a bit sad I haven't seen it anywhere else on a more common style of keyboard.
At work I’m surrounded by people rattling away in the latest MBP (I don’t use one myself).
From listening to the room as machines were replaced, I actually got the impression that the opposite was true; it sounded like people were typing harder.
From trying one of the keyboards out, I found myself typing more percussively too. Without tactile feedback I ended up slapping the keys pretty hard to be certain about actuation/bottoming-out (the same thing?).
I never enjoy typing on a mac laptop - the metal palm rest tends to feel either very cold or rather hot, the sharp edge of the laptop is uncomfortable to the wrists, and the keyboard itself is very shallow and unsatisfying to type on.
This touches on a minor point I don't see brought up much: the corners of the notch to open the lid on the new Touch Bar MBP are surprisingly sharp, sharper than the previous generations. Combined with other similarly sharp, almost unfinished edges around the machine, I see this as a sign of Jony Ive's disdain for human users versus his aluminium designs.
During the development of the first iPhone, Ive and his team became enamored with the look of an extruded aluminum prototype. Even though it was immediately apparent that the model's sharp edges made it physically painful to use as a phone, they persisted in trying to push the design and paper over its principal practical problems. It took Steve Jobs to finally step in, point out the obvious, and check Jony Ive's worst tendencies. [0]
Steve Jobs is gone, and nobody is left to fulfill his roles.
[0]: https://www.cultofmac.com/488008/jony-ive-book-excerpt-iphon...
The touch bar itself boggles my mind in stupidity and had I had a choice I'd have skipped it. I wish I could get 17" matte display with a 2007-era keyboard.
I was angry enough to get a Dell XPS 15 (9550), but that's just ok and it's really hard to leave macOS behind.
What is more insane is that the KB is riveted to the top of the shell. If you want to replace it (good luck finding a kb) you have to drill out all the rivets.
The thing I really don't like on the new MBPs (like my work machine) is definitely the Touch Bar. I think it's a terrible idea and not worth including on any machine to begin with, let alone if it's going to replace the physical escape and F-keys.
If it becomes impossible to buy the top-spec Apple ultralight laptop without a Touch Bar, I'm probably done buying Apple products. Same if I have any stupid issues with my current machine before I get a few more years out of it.
An observation: I'm typically working in coffeeshops; over the last couple of years the share of MacBooks in those places went from nearly 100% to like virtually none. Hipsters and younger people are all on Windows 10 now. Rarely you can see a Mac, and it almost invariably is of a previous generation.
That probably shows up at Microsoft as Win10 revenue, fwiw.
In NYC I’d say it’s 80-90% macbook
I got the new 2017 model, and really hated the keyboard, but also really disliked the Touch Bar and lack of Escape button. I'm not at all concerned with the lack of USB or SD card reader, though I was disappointed with the lack of performance improvements over the 2015 model.
So I returned it, and bought a brand new 2015 model. Except it turns out they changed it! It no longer has a dedicated AMD graphics card. It's an integrated Intel Iris Pro with less VRAM, and it seems really underpowered compared to the old AMD Radeon on my previous model.
The lower graphics performance is especially noticeable if you turn the Retina setting to scaled (like 1.5x, which I prefer). It's not just that apps render a bit more slowly -- I get the sense that there's some GPU memory transfer bottleneck that's happening that causes sudden pauses in UI rendering across the entire OS. And it's something that makes the whole computer slow down with use; rebooting (or restarting Safari) speeds things up again. Typing in Slack or VSCode has noticeable lag, and switching between Spaces results in a significant pause, and the switching animation stutters something fierce. I would go so far as to say that scaled Retina is unusable on this model.
I looked the model ID, and it's "MacBookPro11,4". The model that has a dedicated GPU is "MacBookPro11,5" and was discontinued in October 2016. So it looks like it's impossible to get a 2015 MBP with a dedicated graphics card right now. You can't plug in an external GPU, either; while High Sierra now supports it, it's only supported on the newer models via Thunderbolt 3.
This is really frustrating. I've been using Apple laptops since 2006, and this is the first time when I can genuinely say that none of their products are good enough. I've even looked at the possibility of switching to a Linux laptop, but Linux distros are nowhere near macOS in terms of cohesiveness and UI, and while the laptop models I've looked at (ThinkPad T480S, Dell XPS 15, System76 Oryx Pro) admittedly have much better specs than Apple, none of them stand out as being particularly good.
I'm now hoping that Apple will see sense this year and offer a non-Touch-Bar model with some kind of non-butterfly keyboard. But I'm not hopeful.
As much as I love the 2015 model, I've started moving some workflows to a boring gaming box running Linux. It's amazing how easily NVIDIA cards can push those pixels.
Instead, apple now has multiple incompatible cables and devices. Not only has the rest of the industry caught up to them, apple has regressed in the meantime.
If I’d purchased a new model, I would’ve also needed to purchase a fistful of dongles. It makes no sense.
And I would have had to use the awful keyboard. I don’t like the feel of it, but I can deal with that. What I can’t deal with is the keys randomly failing due to minor dirt, as so many reports indicate. I travel for work and it would be a catastrophe if the space key stopped working.
I also really wish they would add a lightning port to the mbp, so I could take just one set of headphones with me.
My Magsafe has been yanked out at least hundreds of times. I think it is a fantastic solution and I really do not understand what is "better" about the USB-C connector?
1: https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/7/12/15960594/m...
And you can get magsafe-like USB-C chargers. I don't see why, given that option, you'd choose to limit your options to only being able to buy a legitimate charger from Apple, and that charger only being useful for that one device.
First, "it's a standard" ignores reality: there are very few devices out there that implement the standard correctly.
Second, I don't buy chargers every day.
Third, even if I wanted to buy a charger, I would definitely want to spend the money on Apple's "proprietary" chargers, because they are safer and better than the cheap ones (see http://www.righto.com/2012/03/inside-cheap-phone-charger-and... or http://www.righto.com/2012/03/inside-cheap-phone-charger-and... for examples).
I like Magsafe, I've been very happy with it, and I think it is silly of Apple to abandon it for no good reason.
As a dedicated notebook user for 14 years now. The previous MBPr was the sweet spot. I'm holding onto my current macbook and refuse to upgrade. I hope some sanity returns to Apple and soon.
I leave a HyperDrive[0] on my desk to connect my screens and power and very really need to plug anything else in. I use a wireless trackpad and keyboard, wireless headphones.
What else do you need to plug in? I have unlimited cloud storage, all my code is in GitHub, photos in Google Photos. iPhone backs up to iCloud and Google Photos.
If I do need to connect something, I have USB ports on my HyperDrive, but I just never use them. I charge my devices with a wall charger so they can charge if I'm in meetings etc. and get more power from there anyway.
[0] - https://www.hypershop.com/products/hyperdrive-duo-hub-for-us...
http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-docking-station-usb-30-d...
Today’s MBPs? There’s no rationalizing the cost for me.
He literally had to haul his docking station to every meeting where he had to present because none of the meeting rooms had thunderbolt/usb-c adapters.
Also, please don't start with the "but somebody needs to move the world forward" narrative. Move the world all you want, but don't hold me hostage. And "moving the world forward" does not require dropping existing USB connectors.
I'm also amused by the "oh, in a year or so every device will have switched to USB-C" narrative. Guess what, it's quite likely that my JTAG programmers, logic analyzers, USB microscopes, USB ports on oscilloscopes, 3dconnexion spacemouse, label printer, sheet-fed scanner, barcode scanners, and at least 20 kinds of development boards will NOT switch to USB-C anytime soon, and most of them quite likely never will (ever tried routing a USB-C connector on a 2-layer board?). Oh, and I wrote that list just by looking around me, I probably have even more devices.
There is nothing "extremely easy" about USB-C. And even if it were easy, that doesn't solve the problem of connecting all my devices in various circumstances. I don't want to live in a dongle-cable world. They should have kept two USB ports for compatibility.
I'd have expected Lightning to remain but the other end of the cable should've either switched to USB-C or some sort of adapter been included in the box.
As things stand you could walk into an Apple Store, spend the better part of four thousand pounds on a MBP and an iPhone X, and get home to find out that you can't plug one into the other without Apple wanting to take another £35 for a USB-C to Lightning cable (obviously other cables are available but that's beside the point).
That's absolute madness and destroys the idea that Apple hardware exists within any sort of ecosystem.
Use the iPad Pro 29W USB-C charger (or Anker’s USB-C chargers, etc.) and Apple’s USB-C to Lightning “Power Delivery” (USB-C PD) cable, you can ultra fast charge iPhone X, iPads, etc., and yes, you can charge it from current Macs or other brand laptops with USB-C.
The charger's neither here nor there for the sake of my argument: as things stand, you can plug your phone into the charger and the connection between the two can be USB-A, USB-C or Jony Ive's finger for all it matters.
What that really means is "we want to keep selling you stuff and convince you that you really need it." In terms of progress I don't think we've been "moving forward" for many years now --- we're just churning around the same place.
Wired headphone solutions are just nasty. It's gone from a position where I could use the same 3.5mm jack on basically any phone, laptop or PC, to a situation where I either go for lots of dongles, which is an extra expense and also tends not work perfectly or I buy multiple sets of headphones for different devices, which isn't great if you want moderately expensive ANC kit.
The idea that I can buy an Apple laptop, and Apple phone and then have to buy multiple additional dongles and cables to effectively connect the two is just bizarre.
Realistically it would be better if Apple standardised on USB-C for phone and had a mix of USB-A/USB-C on laptops for a period of time whilst peripherals catch up.
Sorry, that’s only true because you mostly see the male end of connectors. Lightning has multiple severe design problems:
- Cables that plug into things have moving parts. There are springy electrical contacts and springy mechanical bits that hold the connector in. These parts wear out. A good design puts all the moving parts on the cable’s end, which may be less attractive but means that, when they inevitably wear out, replacing the cable solves the problem. With Lightning, the parts that wear out are in the socket, where they’re out of sight but can’t be easily replaced.
- There’s something wrong with the electrical contact design. Even on the Apple store, all the male Lightning connectors that aren’t very, very new look a bit scorched on one of the center pins. I don’t know whether this is due to arcing when the connection is made or broken or due to insufficient contact area or pressure.
To add insult to injury, when the socket fails, Apple will not replace it. Either you get a third-party replacement or you replace the whole phone.
Sorry, but even disregarding compatibility, Lightning is attractive but is otherwise shitty.
Are there any of those? I think every cable I can think of or have owned in my life is the other way around with the moving parts in the box part not the cable. I guess there's more space for moving parts in the box bit.
It's true I had a lighting socket pack up and replaced - the repair shop said it was quite common.
Also I'm on an Anker lighting cable as the plastic Apple uses is rubbish, cracks, gets patched with sellotape, dies in the end. PowerLine II is good - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLiSwyknmks.
USB Type C and Micro USB come to mind. On Micro USB, there are very visible springy clips on the outside of the plug. I'm not entirely sure what's going on with USB Type A, but I think the springy part of the contact is in the plug and the leaf spring that holds the plug in may be in the socket.
Why premium laptops are sold for years with defective keyboards is a mystery likely rooted in hubris.
In previous models, you could at least simply rip the keyboard out like this (which was of course an imposition as well): https://youtu.be/2PyhbiwUkE0?t=1229
Imagine if the keyboard was simply screwed on in the first place. The keyboard plate would maybe need to be 1 mm thicker, making the entire device thicker by as much, but an AASP worker could simply replace the thing in a 5 minute job (instead of 2 hours, i.e. never).
PS: Could someone vouch me. HN thinks I'm a bot.
You should take a look at, well, Apple's 30-odd-year catalog. Various industrial design screwups pop up fairly regularly and they're invariably interpreted as a profound insight into whatever it is people think Apple is doing horribly wrong at the particular time.
The official solution was to pick your machine up and drop it from a height of several inches to re-seat the chips.
Absolutely hilarious.
Yeah, sudden jolts really wouldn't be healthy for the stem on a CRT.
The only thing that comes close is XPS oine from Dell. Thinkpads with linux just can't compare (bad screens, software trouble with "reasonable resolution", no MS office, etc). Anything with Windows can't compare, since who would want to use spying os with ads in start menu?
I would love anything as good as MBP but there just isn't anything.
There were some pretty devastating security flaws in the recent version that are eerily reminiscent of the kind other OSes saw in the 80s and 90s (Plaintexting passwords)
There are essentially two input devices in a modern computer: Apple has nailed the trackpad, but they've flubbed the keyboard.
And don't get me started on the force touch which is on by default, very inconsistent and mapped to "look up in dictionary" because that's exactly what anyone would want from this feature.
Surface Book is what the MBP should have been...
Also although I still love my 2013 MBP and macOS it’s really annoying that Apple have things like Split View that can’t be run from the keyboard.
It’s like they’ve forgotten how professionals use Macs at speed.
Maybe if it succeeds someone can create a class-action in Canadian courts...
It's just a helpful data point when establishing new laws and assisting judges to form their legal opinions in cases without existing examples within Canadian law... and I'd assume also inspire Canadian lawyers to form their own class actions when they've already been tested in American courts.
I was just curious if foreign parties could play any role in American ones, which I doubt is the case.
I’ve bought very “tock” generation of MBP for a dozen years but I’m skipping this one. I just don’t need the extra horsepower or the extra headaches.
Purchasing a can of air is ridiculous - it's not 1995. We might as well buy some rubbing alcohol to clean out the inside of the mouse balls while we're at it.
The poor keyboard experience even inspired me to try a new Surface Pro. Ironic, because it was Vista that drove me to a Mac. If the Surface reliably ran MacOS with updates... I may have found my perfect device.
As much as I have enjoyed every Macbook I've owned, I can't recommend buying any Macbook for the foreseeable future.
A keyboard guaranteed to have issues is unacceptable at this price point, or any really.
Apparently, Apple filed a new patent fixing the key/dust issue.
Will be checking the new refresh to see if any steps are made forward, but wait for the rattlesnake to bite the other fella first for a few months.
I also find the new touchpad twitchy and not as good at ignoring palm input.
If they would just spend a little bit of time on Linux compatibility they would blast Apple out of a lot of developers hands ...
I hope and suspect that the Linux Subsystem for Windows (debian based) will eventually eat all of Windows and provide complete linux support (battery, resume, etc).
https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/14/16142490/microsoft-surfac...
I have had zero problems with my keyboard, though I acknowledge that this might just be luck.
I actually really like that all the ports are Thunderbolt 3/USB-C... but I wish more things supported USB-C to match. Like if the phone were USB-C, and if flash drives were USB-C, I'd be set. It's frustrating to have to carry dongles around, for sure. I loved the SD card slot and HDMI port on the previous generation because I used them somewhat regularly, so lacking those is a disappointment. I'd be much happier if I had four T-3 ports plus the SD card slot and HDMI port. The ability to charge out of any port is actually nifty, though; I use both sides regularly.
There are a lot of things I like better, though. I actually prefer the new keyboard (I hated how the previous generation's keys wiggled). The new screen is really phenomenal. The larger touchpad is really nice. The lessened weight is also a plus. Touch ID is pretty cool, though I'm very uninterested in the TouchBar (no strong feelings either way). And otherwise they're practically the same, except for moderately improved internal specs.
For me, the new model has been a net positive. I think if I were having keyboard issues like so many others, that opinion would change, but with my present luck I am happy with it.
They have beat sales estimates on the MBP and still show growth despite a contracting market. A few people raging on hacker news is not representative of the market, nor even software developers as a whole.
As a counterpoint, my current MBP (more than a year old) is half the weight of my old one, and while the keyboard is worse, it's not significant enough for me to jettison the entire ecosystem, which is great. The Touch Bar is fine for me, though I've configured it to act like my old machine.
Summary:
+2 points weight
+1 point improved display and resolution
-1 point keyboard
+0 points Touch Bar
But significant enough that I bought a five-year-old used MBP rather than buy a new one. I don't care about weight: I miss the 17". And improved resolution? It's the same in 2017 as it was in 2013.
2017 MBP compared to used 2013 MBP
CPU +16%
GPU + 200%
RAM + 0%
Display + 0%
Weight 4.46lb vs 4.02lbs
Keyboard failure rate: +100%
Cost difference $2,000.
So basically unless you need graphics, get a used one.
On a link about class action lawsuit against Apple for the same exact reason. Oh, the irony.
As I said, I’ve bought every second revision of these things for many years, I’m on #4 or 5, clearly I like their products. But what I’m thinking is this:
You know, Great Leader has been gone a long time. We were all afraid the wheels would come off and they didn’t, but they haven’t really introduced anything big or new since, so... dunno where that leaves us, but whatever. We’re talking about laptops anyway.
Bad hardware happens. There was bound to be something eventually. Especially when your lead designer is off fucking around with buildings (I still don’t know what upper management was thinking there). But he’s back now and a redesign isn’t due for at least another year so fingers crossed.
Two bad in a row, then I’ll start to worry. Until then I’m overdue for a new tablet and then a new phone in the next year. I’ll be busy with those for a bit.
The biggest problem isn't with the design issues here. Apple is not perfect, every new design will come with its own set of problem and trade offs. Normally most of these are Net positive gain. This time around I am pretty sure the Keyboard is mostly a step backwards, because reliability is the most important thing for a Keyboard.
And what is worst is that people has been complaining about it since 2015, and in 2016, then 2017, two version later they still haven't done a thing, apart from making the keyboard louder to make you think you pressed the button.
There is still a lot to love for the iPhone. ( Even that is going downhill, but still loveable ) But Mac has been on the sideline with no attention and care.
I would beg Tim Cook please do not come out and say you Love or you care about the Mac. You are no Steve Jobs and do not have Reality Distortion Field. When you say something like you you are only really taking a piss and add insult to injury.
And last note: Please prove me wrong in WWDC 2018.
It's also ridiculous to say that they don't care about the Mac when they just released the iMac Pro and are currently designing the new Mac pro.
And after this, they are gonna need years to rebuild that trust.
Now, as soon as they actually do something about that, no one cares anymore.
except when it isn't
Or if they really have to keep those (imo) awful keyboards, I feel like they could at least offer more clicky/soft/silent keyboards as an option.
The bigger problem is that this can't be fixed in stores, and it takes 13 days to get your computer back once you ship it to Apple.
Alas, the X1 Carbon and X1 Yoga abandoned this design. The keyboard is no longer a CRU (Customer Replaceable Unit). It's a complete teardown to get to it. But if you get the onsite service option they will send someone out the next business day to replace it.
- Send or deliver the laptop for repair and wait ~1-2 weeks for its return.
- Pay ~$35 for two replacement keys and butterfly mechanisms from an online spares shop and attempt the repair myself.
I chose to pay the $35 — the keys should be here next week.
I'm now concerned this will recur after the fix unless I only use an external keyboard, which seems daft for a laptop.
After 15+ years of buying Apple laptops I'm seriously considering making the repair myself then selling the laptop, and buying a Lenovo or Dell. I type 100wpm+ and good keyboards are so important, but I'd really miss several macOS-specific apps (Sketch, iTerm, Airmail).
For a Sketch replacement, try Lunacy by Icons8 -- it's a Sketch clone for Windows (not quite as good, but pretty damn close, and it opens even complex sketch files perfectly). It's also free.
For an iTerm replacement, use ConEmu with WSL. You'll have to fiddle around with the settings to make it look good, but it's hugely customizable, and then you can run Ubuntu or Arch or whatever else you want natively on Windows.
I personally would go back to an older model, like the latest Macbook Air that has regular keyboard (I don't think it has butteryfly keys yet).
Otherwise it's a good time to switch. But frankly I was unimpressed with my Thinkpad. Felt like death by a million papercuts whether using Windows or Linux.
The X1 Carbon is currently my top choice after the MacBook, so I'm interested in any opinions.
I bought my first Thinkpad when I checked out the new MB Pros when they came out in Fall of ‘16. I was so disgusted by the keyboard that I went home and bought my X1 Carbon and learned how to set up a Linux machine (surprisingly easy!)
Apple has really lost its way. They’re selling eye candy now, not work machines.
I couldn't imagine using the new Macbook's keyboard full-time - I've broken the keys (in half) on the 2015 Macbook repeatedly just by typing. For now - and this seems to be the feeling around me, better to use an external keyboard for most of the time.
I personally cannot even touchtype of the 15" keyboard on the new Macbooks, as it differs ever so slightly, but too much from my 13" at home. I'm already mentally-mapping out four other keyboards I work on. I may not be able to do a fifth!
What? How?? Like are you just an extremely heavy typist or what?
I've been using my 2017 15-inch MBP for probably multiple hours a day (on average) since August, and I've had no problems. I get that there's a fair amount of luck involved there, but I don't understand how you can literally break the keys just by typing.
The keyboard did develop a separate (but related) issue though: certain key presses weren't being registered, unless I really pressed down HARD. No amount of cleaning seemed to help. I just thought something wrong with my fingers/hands, from typing so much in my life! Was I developing a working disability, akin to carpel tunnel or something?
It was only when I replaced the keyboard in full did I realized my slowness and difficulty in typing was the keyboard, and not me! My WPM count went up almost 2x. I enjoyed writing for pleasure, again.
Maybe it matters less in a co-located space where everyone is at a desk all day.
I've taken my 2012, 2013, and 2015 Macbooks on full on offroad bicycle trips without a problem, but the current crop just seems to tip into "too wimpy" territory.
Lenovo X1 Carbon
Dell XPS 13 (inc. the developer edition which ships with Linux)
HP Elitebook 840
I use a Dell XPS 15 with a Dell TB16 dock but I'm not sure I would recommend this configuration to everyone: The machine and dock are very picky about what kernel I run, and I can't get the combo working correctly with suspend/resume on Ubuntu 18.04 (sticking with 17.10+kernel 4.15.18 for now). WiFi also needs to be manually reconnected every hour or so.
Keyboard failed, most likely some dirt or liquid. I was in foreign country so bad situation. Dell technician arrived next day to my hotel and changed keyboard in front of me. They even got correct keyboard layout (czech). This was done as part of basic 2 year warranty, I have no business plan.
I used to be able to rely on Apple to put this kind of effort in, but I don't think I would be able to today. Dell are really trying.
(And they never did ask for first one back)
Apple is a joke because it sells 'premium' products, with low quality and bad service. I really do not want to digg out harddrive from my laptop, before sending it somewhere, to get it back some time in future. Especially for something trivial like broken keyboard.
>Next day on-site service is a standard for business laptops, I expect that. I was surprised it was for free
Do you really mean this? If Apple had charged you then next-day on-site service would have been a good experience? It's only because this was not even a possibility in this story that you are saying they're a joke?
just trying to understand your expectations here. (And FYI I don't have any relationship with Apple, Dell, or any other parties we're discussing.)
- Someone else wrote here that it costs $500 to replace keyboard on Macbook (needs new casing). That is a joke!
- It is not possible to replace keyboard on new Macbooks without major dissassembly. So on-site keyboard replacement is not possible even theoretically. Dell does everything onsite, including motherboard or display replacement.
- Next day on-site service is a standard in business environment. It applies to laptops, machines, trucks... No joke here, stuff breaks, stuff must be repaired, show must go on...
- I personally expect to have next-day on-site as an option. I would pay premium in case of emergency. In this case it was not urgent, but very nice surprise. Apple is a joke because they do not even offer that..
(I realize it sounds like I'm doing market research but I'm just interested in your view and have no professional affiliation with this sector.)
My point is that macbook is not easily serviceable machine.
On Dell I will replace battery myself in a few months, very easy.
>informal
>a person or thing that is ridiculously inadequate.
>"public transport is a joke"
Perhaps I am wrong and you find it "ridiculously" inadequate, but from your comments it sounds more like you consider it sub-par or not competitive.
Let me think about if I can think of something Apple has done that's a joke. (I just Googled one.) So, the Apple III had no fan even though it needed one (engineers had miscalculated its heat profile) and as a result had a 100% failure rate. Its chips would melt out of their sockets.[1] One official solution to reseat the chips was to lift the machine 3 inches and drop it, to reseat the chips. This was in official company support documents.
That's a joke. (The story we're commenting under about failing keyboards might also qualify - but the support option itself doesn't seem to match this definition.)
Basically I think you're just using too harsh of a word for the options we're discussing - better words might be: lacking, inadequate, sub-par, etc.
[1] https://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/apple/11-worst-apple-prod...
I (and many of my friends) do consider Apple a joke for enterprise use. Joke in sense of "useless" or "inadequate". 'Genius' in some store does not really cut it.
Anyway, this helps prevent the accidental double taps on the bad keys: https://github.com/toothbrush/debounce-mac
My current work computer is old MacBook Pro. My personal one is Dell XPS 13" and if nothing happens to their design, my next work computer likely will be Dell Precision 15".
2. Some of the designs they show look like they would still allow dust to get in but make it even more impossible to get out...
But that is pretty much nonsense, as when I hit the key in a different place, it reacts differently.
It's the other parts of the MBP design that suck: USB-C induced dongle hell is real. The touchbar is a useless gimmick. Battery life isn't great.
At work I still use a 15" MBP from four years ago. I would have happily updated by now (if nothing else, because the anti-glare coating peeled off in the center of the screen); instead, I'm going to keep it until you abandon the butterfly keyboard.
And for my personal machine, I have an even older 13" laptop. I was going to buy a 13" MBP, but I won't buy anything that has that butterfly keyboard.
I've killed a few keyboards on older Thinkpads. The replacement part was maybe $50 new, and considerably less for a used one on Ebay. It's not integrated with any other component and can be changed in 10 minutes with only a Phillips screwdriver.
I'm sure integrating the keyboard with the expensive machined aluminum upper case, trackpad and whatever else is built into that component resulted in a laptop that's 1mm thinner.
Never again.
Interestingly, when I searched for that number, I learned Twitter OCRs images you post: https://www.google.com/search?q=605-02931+macbook
My A, D, R, and T keys will fall right off if I turn over my macbook.
I've been abroad for the four months I've had my macbook pro and haven't had the opportunity to at least take it in for fixing. It gets worse every week. From now on, I'm sticking to buying older macbook hardware now instead of just iPhones.
What we really need to hope is that they’ve been working on a redesign or reverted design for awhile, as these things take years.
(fwiw, pasting in the corresponding model numbers into the URL gave me no such luck)
I got my 13” 2015 off the refurb section.
Another issue I face is pain in my first finger joints (right below the fingernail bed) after a long day of typing. Maybe I just have heavy fingers but the old softer keys were less harsh.
Another unrelated (we’ll it is like a keyboard, right? :) issue is the TouchBar requiring two taps for most things. I even have my TouchBar as “static” with just a few buttons.
Apple even provides a guide on how to do it: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT205662
Also, this happened to me inside of four months with the computer. I didn't have to air-can my previous Macbook Air for the four years I had it.
Now contrast that to laptops with drain holes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7cvi00OZDM
They can one of a number of aerosol propellants that you don’t want to breath and aren’t good for the environment either.
Poison Gas spray would be a better description.
Intel HD 630 is so bad that I can spot the lag during scroll in Safari. I switched to Radeon by turning on Photos.app(yes, if you ran Photos it would switch to discrete graphics).
I just can't grasp why the 13" has better integrated graphics than 15".
Translation: I currently have three keys acting up. It's a pain in the ass and as much as I've loved Apple products for almost 30 years, I'm ready to give them the old heave ho.
I prefer to use an external keyboard when I can, but that can't be avoided all the time.
But nobody seems to be mentioning that the old Macbook keyboards failed too, collected dust and debris just as much (in my personal experience). Probably once a month I'd have to pry off a keycap, blow below, and snap the keycap back on. Half the time it would be the space bar.
Now it's the same thing, except you use a can of compressed air instead [1]. Which I have to do, again, probably once a month. Yes it seems dumb to have to buy one (and it's not like they warn you in advance), but on the other hand, I'm no longer worried about breaking the mechanism when snapping on/off.