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> A true hobby is something that you don't do for money and that has no deadlines attached.

I think that's a little too specific and doesn't fit a lot of hobbies. People do often make a little money from their hobbies: fixing up and reselling old cars, thrifting and selling on eBay, refinishing furniture, putting up videos on YouTube.

Also, many hobbies have time-critical components. Even all-American pastimes like sports require you to not miss the game.

I'd crystalize it like so: A hobby is something you sink time into where failure has no negative consequences.

Since people like to pick nits here, that probably needs a couple of qualifiers. The sunk time itself can be considered a negative consequence. And the failure may have negative consequences within the hobby — if you accidentally crush your ship in a bottle, you aren't gonna be happy.

But the negative consequences of failure don't bleed out into anything else in your life. You have no need to succeed. That encapsulation of failure is what I think makes hobbies safe and thus encourage fun and a sense of play.

The reason it's so often disastrous to turn your hobby into a job is exactly because of that reason: it means you are now adding real stakes to the game. If you failed frequently and safely when it was a hobby, that was fine and you might still love the hobby. Once those failures matter, it can upend the whole cost/benefit calculation.

I think that definition is actually too general—ironing my shirts or mowing my lawn might apply. I think some nod toward personal fulfillment needs to be there.

Append "and is also not a chore" :-)

I've lately been thinking about the relative healthiness of my hobby, in which failure could definitely bleed into the rest of my life. I go climbing and mountaineering, where the negative consequences for a mistake can be disastrous. Part of the fun of this hobby is the risk assessment with consequences, so I wonder how it skews with your definition. There are similar edge cases with other potentially dangerous hobbies (racing cars, mountain biking, wingsuiting, boxing, etc) and this also brings up the nature of consequences as a delineator. Where you draw the line is very personal--I also tinker with electronics and, as part of that, have messed around with mains electricity.

Not saying you're wrong, just throwing a wrench into the works because it has been on my mind and I'm curious what the hive mind has to say.

His definition is not invalidated by making money so long as the money you make is not the reason you are doing the activity.

The deadline part is a more onerous constraint but still I like his definition better than yours because of the hobbies that have negative consequences (like the mountaineering).

I think the best definition would be a modification of "A true hobby is something that you don't do for money and that has no deadlines attached." but instead of saying what it isn't (deadlines, money) say what it is:

A true hobby is a personal activity that has sentimental value.

The meaning of 'personal' here is that it would be detrimental for the activity to be attached to the world (through things like deadlines or money) and it has sentimental value i.e. it is not a chore but is actually enjoyable.

Another observation is that you sometimes want to share personal things with others but only if they belong to the group you trust with this particular secret. Hobbies can therefore have attachments but only to the world of that hobby (some niche community probably). This world can then become a gateway to the real world again since if you rise in the ranks of this community you become a part of the leadership that straddles the border between the community and the real world, the members of the community will often pay for this 'protection' - as an example, pro gamers legitimize the hobby of gaming since it becomes a possibility, however unlikely, to make a living playing games. This protection allows hobbyists to fully engage in their activity without concern for reality, hiding behind the delusion of one day becoming pro or in other cases staying relatively anonymous or legitimate due to the more extreme people taking the spotlight. For those who stand the vanguard it is a cutthroat life very much attached to the real world (deadlines, money, training, hard work) the hobby has therefore ceased to be a hobby and has become a job or lifestyle.

I agree with OP mindset but not saying there is an unique answer, just different mindsets. Personally, I enjoyed when thinking in a specific problem, improvement, algorithm, etc could last forever. The point was enjoying the moment and connecting the brain with strong feelings about progress and microachievements. I could rewrite the same app from scratch without feeling exhausted, just for pleasure.

I also think specialization works against this idea. In the early 80s a computer game was a job of a single or few developers: they were moving a few pixels, using limited colors, and with very limited sound capabilities. Now it is very difficult to impress ourselves or others working in small groups. There are exceptions like computer security, demo scenes, etc but the participants are outliers and not the common denominator.

I think making money and doing a hobby need not be independent. Being able to earn money doing something you enjoy makes the activity more sustainable and provides resources you can pour back into the hobby to take it to new heights.

Additionally I think maintaining ownership and flexibility of schedule is good to a certain point, but having deadlines and external stakeholders (which you preferably choose and control) also helps for motivation. It's always more rewarding when you meet those than question your commitment to your hobby when you forget about it for a few months because "you were busy".

> If you are a pretty good hobbyist photographer, one of the worst things you can do is shoot a wedding. Shooting a wedding, even for professional photographers, is one of the highest stress environments possible for photography.

I class myself as taking "decent snapshots", have a good DSLR and a fair bit of experience. I've shot three weddings for family & friends, all of them were under duress. None of the couples were going to pay for a photographer so I was pretty much the only alternative to them asking people for whatever pictures they happened to take and share.

On the day it was a balance between taking part in the wedding and getting decent pictures, including the formal shots. I was pretty nervous and didn't like the directing part, I prefer to be anonymous in the background. Not everything turned out well but compared to the alternative they were all very happy and I did get good coverage of the days events. I did sort of enjoy it and was well prepared with kit & plans for the day plus it was certainly an experience but have said to myself never again.......

I've been a hobbyist DJ for a long time and I would totally agree with this.

I began charging a small fee for my time a few years ago (I justified that I should make at least half my freelance dev rate) but even that small price totally ruined the experience for me. Once it became a job it wasn't fun. Now I'm back to doing pro-bono events mainly for non profits and it's fun again.

It gets weird for stuff like cosplay. Hard deadlines, still a hobby.

Yeah, social hobbies often don't fit the “no deadlines” definition.

If there are no consequences for missing a deadline, why even call it that?

There are obvious consequences within the scope of the hobby itself, even if there aren't to your overall life. If you don't get the costume done in time for the convention, then you either miss the convention or go without the costume. Those are the consequences for missing that particular deadline.

I think they made the distinction with the question “what if the deadline slips?”

If you don’t finish your costume in time for a con, you miss it. No big deal.

If you miss delivering a costume for client for a con, very big deal.

If you keep putting yourself in a position where you have aggressive hard deadlines.. very big deal.

Well, if you're planning a costume for a whole year and then don't finish in time, it's a huge deal, at least for cosplayers that I know. Many of them actually postpone the real-life work before big events in order to finish the costumes and prepare everything. For them it's more of an obsession than just pastime, but still it's a hobby.

Obsession over hobby makes it not a hobby anymore. Been there, done that.

Deadlines are the worst.

Becoming a guild master ruined WoW for me. A successfull guild is ran like a business. People get upset if you take a raid night off.

Being a guild leader was fun for a little bit, but it eventually killed my love for the game

A hobby is something you pay to do.

So, making money and hustling can't be a hobby?

No, "making money" and "hustling" can never be a hobby.