Comment by wpietri | Hacker News Reader

Comment by wpietri | Hacker News Reader

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Absolutely. I love this bit:

> Just before she retired, Mr. Hyams said he saw the 96-year-old Ms. Bloom trudging out of the subway and headed to work in the middle of a fierce snowstorm. “I said, ‘What are you doing here?’ and she said, ‘Why, where should I be?’” he recalled.

It reminds me of a favorite bit from "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones":

> Hyakujo, the Chinese Zen master, used to labor with his pupils even at the age of eighty, trimming the gardens, cleaning the grounds, and pruning the trees.

> The pupils felt sorry to see the old teacher working so hard, but they knew he would not listen to their advice to stop, so they hid away his tools.

> That day the master did not eat. The next day he did not eat, nor the next. "He may be angry because we have hidden his tools," the pupils surmised. "We had better put them back."

> The day they did, the teacher worked and ate the same as before. In the evening he instructed them: "No work, no food."

That's a beautiful allegory, and reminds me a lot of a lesson passed down from my father: "doing what you must today makes it easier to do what you want tomorrow".

Quoted without context, this is misleading other commenters.

As wpietri commented: The point is that the teacher refused to be put on a pedestal.

The teacher was referring to his position within the monastic community, not making a general rule of not feeding the hungry unless they work.

On the contrary, Zen (and Buddhism in general) always emphasized unconditional and selfless compassion.

Absolutely. The teacher was clearly speaking in a very particular context. It's, "If I am not allowed to work, I refuse to eat."

Even in the same book, there are plenty of other stories that make different but complimentary points. E.g., "The Stingy Artist": http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/47thestingyartist.html

Or the one about the Zen master and a thief who tries to rob him: http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/44thethiefwhobecameadiscip...

I've never heard of "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones" before. Thanks for bringing it up.

Oh wow I don't remember that story from the book. The maxim "no work, no food" totally reminds me of 1 Thessalonians 3:10.

1 Thessalionians 3:10 is Night and day we pray most earnestly that we may see you again and supply what is lacking in your faith

This might not be the one you're looking for?

And if you want to use the bible as a justification for not feeding those who don't work... Matthew 6:36? Matthew 25:35? Isaiah 58:10?

Or let's go with the canoncial James 2:14-18, What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

You know as well as I do he's referring to a real verse. The fact that he cited it as 1 Thessalonians instead of 2 Thessalonians doesn't change the fact that there's a line in the New Testament that says "If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat."

There is context for it, and I don't consider it an indictment of Christianity, but pretending it's not in there doesn't help your credibility.

I actually did not know which verse he was referring to, no. So, thank you for pointing me there.

If you know of an interpretation of this including the context you refer to, I'd appreciate a pointer very much.

Yeah I meant 2 Thessalonians. The context is the whole of chapter 3 verses 6 through 15. Basically the Apostle Paul is writing to the church in Thessalonica with advice on how to make the communal lifestyle there work. Because if everyone is living together and working together, you're bound to have some issues with some people taking advantage of that. So the Apostle is saying, first of all, set a good example, and secondly, go ahead and exercise some discipline in the community.

Verse 15 hints at how you might want to interpret these verses as compared to the references you cited: "Do not regard them as enemies, but warn them as believers." You see, a Christian has rather different conduct when he is dealing with a believer or a non-believer. If someone is your brother in Christ, it's ok to be a little hard on him. Same way you have the right to be a little harder on your own family members than I would. It's all supposed to be done in love, of course.

Hope that helps.

That does help, thank you. (Not that I'm entirely agreeing with it, but it's helpful in understanding where it comes from :)

No sweat, no sauce.

Awesome old guy on youtube making old school italian pasta sauce.

> ... The day they did, the teacher worked and ate the same as before. In the evening he instructed them: "No work, no food."

Isn't this very contrary to the belief that people shouldn't have to work for their basic necessities?

No. The point is that the teacher refused to be put on a pedestal. He was going to participate in the community as long as he was able, and nobody else could take that away from him.

That's a very controversial belief. Most traditional value systems disagree. "He who does not work, shall not eat".

There is also a long-running train of thought that work is essential to the human character and that without it we decay into aimlessness.

I think activity is essential to the human character. We are not far from a point where we don't have to work for food and other basic necessities (though, as usual, the future is here but it's not evenly distributed).

We can sort of see it with very rich people. They do stuff even though for many of them their activity adds peanuts to their existing fortune. I'm not talking about the hyper-active, super-ambitious types.

Pity they do not do enough of the right things with their influence.

We have enough major world wide problems they could tackle. And I am not just talking about charity - that is just passing the buck at most.

This excerpt is wonderful. Thanks so much for sharing.

It's also a very err, non-socialist allegory in a way - what if the teacher could not work? Would he just want to not be a burden and die?

From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs

As he got older and was less able to work his ability would diminish and his need would remain static.

So his pupils would need to work to feed him, but he showed willing to do what little he could, thus fulfilling a social contract / fairness need.

Proper teaching and especially mentoring is hard work. So if they do not work, then they are not a teacher, right?

Remember that Zen likes to confuse people with logic to achieve better understanding.

(It also attacks defining people by their occupation a few times.)

Not at all. The case is where the teacher can work and wants to work. In the context of the story, his statement expands to, "If I can't work, I won't eat." It's about his right to participate fully in the community.

Zen also has a long tradition of mendicants monks. E.g.: https://tricycle.org/magazine/zen-and-art-begging/

The Buddha himself spent time living as a beggar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha#Renunciation_an...

And of course there's a long tradition of charity and caring in Zen that runs to this day. For example, San Francisco's Zen Hospice: https://www.zenhospice.org/about/our-values

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