Ask HN: Why does everyone use a MacBook Pro despite saying they suck?
About to buy a new machine for a dev position and was just curious about the thought process of using a MBP. Any good alternatives?
I have to second the other person recommending a Lenovo X1 Carbon. I had one for awhile and it was just about the perfect laptop. Surface Pro looks nice too.
As a developer they are the perfect middle ground. OSX runs everything I usually run in Linux and I have all the paid for software I'd run on windows (Photoshop, Lightroom, etc).
Prior to switching to mac I just dual booted windows and linux depending on what I needed. Then sketch came out and it was only OSX and I had to make the decision on having a third setup.
Then I realized everything I was doing in my 2 OSes I could do in a single one even though I hated the hardware.
Its on my list to try again and see if they've made it better.
On the flipside, their battery life always ends up worse and they go through twice as many machines in the same time frame, which is _much_ more annoying. A week of productivity loss a year isn't worth the cost savings.
The cost issue is always strange one for me. Most employers are happy to drop $2500 on a laptop. If you are purchasing it yourself, fine, but that's usually not the case for a work machine.
Switching to linux is in the same category as Vim for me. Something I should do someday.
Personally, I love my MBP I got late last year — 13", no touchbar. I use the larger, touchbar version for work, and it doesn't really suit me.
The only things that really bother me are the keyboard and sometimes the lack of ports, but honestly the keyboard is still pretty good, and I don't find myself plugging things into my laptop that often.
(Although I admit I've primarily used a Mac the past couple years, so maybe Window 10 has degraded recently.)
My latest fun issue is that my gaming desktop won't install OS updates. It knows there are updates available, but when I tell it to install, the progress bar never progresses. I've tried restarting multiple times, but it makes no difference. I thought maybe I just needed to let it run for a while. It's been running for 3 days now, and the progress bar still hasn't moved.
I guess I'm probably going to have to either reformat the machine, or decide that I don't want OS updates any longer.
Meanwhile, my OSX work laptop needs to be restarted multiple times a week, or the wifi gets temperamental and programs somehow start to accumulate and eat all the available CPU and RAM, it restarts itself periodically with zero warning (thank goodness for the "open everything up exactly how it was" feature, pretty much necessary at this point, compare that with Windows, where I'm glad for the once a month forced restart because otherwise I'd never close out of way too much software), and has had several kernel panics just this year, which are caused by OSX itself according to the dump. It regularly struggles to do basic things, like dismiss the screensaver on wakeup. It truly is a finicky and pathetic system to me, and the only reason I'm okay with using it is that it has SLIGHTLY better support for POSIX than Windows 7, and because I'm required by my work to use it.
This is something you will not have to even think about on a healthy mac, as long as the hardware is not damaged in some way.
> Meanwhile, my OSX work laptop needs to be restarted multiple times a week, or the wifi gets temperamental and programs somehow start to accumulate and eat all the available CPU and RAM, it restarts itself periodically with zero warning (...) , and has had several kernel panics just this year, which are caused by OSX itself according to the dump.
Your mac has hardware problems -- ask for a new one, if possible.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201257
Runs mostly ok now, though still a pretty crap machine in my view (keyboard, 4 hours battery life (less if you do any actual work), terrible WiFi (2.4 GHz) when any dongle is plugged in (and with 2 ports, one of which is for charging, you need dongles), etc.).
2) Though there are now more alternatives of comparable quality, it's a lot of work (and some risk) to dig up that model in the product line of XX supplier. And even if you find a good model, it often gets watered down with similarly named low-quality options so you have to get very specific about model, and you have to do that every time you have to re-buy outside of Apple.
That said, if you're doing Linux/unix work, I've been eyeing up the purism Librem laptops should I need a replacement.
The new keyboard absolutely sucks.
But what's even worse, is that with kids around etc, it becomes almost inevitable that there will be some kind of liquid spill etc during the 3-4 year ownership, and that costs ~$700 to replace half the machine, v $50 to replace just the keyboard on most other machines.
I had to do it on the 2013 pro (about 1 year after a coffee spill), now I'm looking at having to pay for (beg the boss to pay for) the awful 2016 pro keyboard again (beer this time, and already a couple of keys are unreliable).
Surface Covers had a lot of restrictions in terms of size, power and complexity.
Simply Mac OS has become shitty in comparison. The Windows XP of the modern era. It's got some cool tricks, but the OS is stale, and almost has to be. Windows and Linux can be innovative because they have more too lose (Like Macs in 2001).
Mac OS's deepest flaw (in my view) is simply terrible window management even compared to earlier versions I have used. If you are a mac head I'm sure it all makes perfect sense, but as someone who aims to switch comfortably between OSs (to the point that I favor OS neutral apps as much as possible) the radical difference in philosophy for Macs is simply Jarring.
But that personal issue aside, the system over relies on security through obscurity. This means that because Mac OS is only used for at most 10% of laptop/desktops, and not servers (Linux) or 90% of laptop/desktops (Windows) they are an incredibly small target for hackers, and are thusly "Secure" despite regularly ranking at the bottom of security reviews. You can see this in the basic security flaws in every new OS release.
Lastly the biggest issue is exposure. The more people there are using something, the more problems there will be. every new person is another chance to find a flaw. Dell, HP, and every computer manufacturer has experienced this.
Now all that said why did I pick a Macbook Pro, and why would I recommend anyone buy one? Simply support, unix, and build quality. Macs get a lot of developer support, meaning that you have access to really great tools. This is the same reason to choose windows for the best MS Office support or what not. My Co-Worker has a hackintosh just so he can run music editing software when he is not gaming (which of course he runs windows for).
Unix is also a killer feature. You get the great native Posix shell (which LSS on Windows, and just Linux also provides), which makes it easy to develop on and for the Linux/unix systems I rely on at work.
The build Quality is also great. Windows PCs are finally rivaling Macs, but Macs just are well made and hold up well to age.
The same is true for the hardware. A Macbook of 5 years ago is a better machine than the current ones (except for things like CPU speed etc, of course).
Note that this is of course not limited to Apple. Windows 8 was also quantifiably a worse operating system than Windows 7. GNOME has gone through the same quality degradation on multiple occasions as well.
But not Windows 10 or arguably even 8.1 whereas the stability of macOS has been downhill since 10.8
- From my 2017 mbp running 10.12 because 10.13 is so much buggier and I can't go down any further than .12
I personally feel that 7 is still a better system than 10, but I acknowledge that other people could make a valid argument for the opposite.
My 2011 Macbook Air is still on 10.8. Partially because it has a 64 GB SSD with not enough free space to upgrade, but also because there is absolutely nothing in newer versions that would make it better, and plenty of things that makes it worse.
FWIW I use a Dell XPS 13 and a Surface Pro and both work perfectly well. Install Ubuntu from the app store, get Mobaxterm and run gnome-terminal. You're set at that point.
On the other hand, I'm slowly moving away from being a "windows developer". I'm still using .Net but it's .Net Core. As I start seeing how great the "Windows Tax" is as far as system resources and cost when it comes to running hosted servers, Docker, serverless functions, etc. it makes no sense to stay on Windows, but I really don't feel like mucking with Linux on my personal computer. I've owned Macs in the past and having both commercial software, and a real Unix operating system would be ideal and of course I could do iOS development.
So the question is, do you need a laptop? For $100 more you can get a 27 inch 5K iMac with 32GB of RAM a 2TB fusion drive. You get a faster computer, twice as much RAM. A better keyboard, a more performant GPU and USB 3 ports.
However, I need a new laptop and I really don't want the Touch Bar MBPs. :( I don't know anyone that likes them.
Keep in mind that you're probably not hearing from folks who like them. I use one all day at work and like it fine, even though I like the keyboard of my 2013 MBP better.
I will say that the primary driver is more being on MacOS, which is a nice middle ground for ease of use for our developer team that's primarily working in things like Ruby on Rails and React, and also really great for movie editing for our marketing folks.
We're all still holding hope that the next MBP fixes the keyboard issues. Personally I'm still jamming on a 2011 MBA that's probably the single most reliable, functional piece of hardware I've ever owned. It's the definitive workhorse. It's a shame the quality hasn't kept pace across the other lines and new models.
I understand the complaints about keyboard failures due to dust getting under keys, but my personal experience with a 2016 model has been fine. I had to blow it out once with compressed air after 1.5 years and it worked again fine after that. It took two minutes and wasn't a big deal to me.
I don't understand the violent hate of the switch to USB-C. I find it super convenient that my phone (Samsung S8), laptop and Nintendo Switch all charge from the same power cable. And getting a couple of thin USB-C end-cap convertors on Amazon to plug in older USB devices cost me less than $10. It just hasn't been a negative at all for me.
Beyond that, Macs in general are a great compromise for developers who want to write code that runs primarily on Linux servers but who don't want to run Linux as a laptop OS (which can be a pain in the ass on laptops due to unpredictable battery drain, unreliable suspend/restore, no native support for software like Photoshop/Lightroom, less polished UI, whatever your reasons).
Windows has gotten a lot better in that regard, but a lot of Unix-native stuff still sucks to install and run on Windows. Docker on Windows is a dog, installing various native extensions for Python is a real pain in Windows, etc.
There's lots of little paper cuts using Windows in a Linux environment because Windows is just so different than Linux. For example, you can write and test a Docker file on a Windows machine that won't rebuild cleanly on a Linux server because on Windows you don't have to chmod +x your Docker entrypoint script, but on Linux the Docker image won't start after a rebuild because the entrypoint script will get installed with your local file permissions (which aren't set to +x by default). That's just one tiny example, but that's the kind of thing that illustrates why people building code primarily for for Linux servers might not prefer using Windows on their personal machine.
The work machine works fine and is mostly docked so I don't care about the ports either.
My personal macbook however was a totally different story:
- While usb-c only ports were annoying, it was much improved by the usb-c to usb-a converter included with my Samsung S8 (oh, the irony).
- The keyboard, however, was a totally different experience. I've had two replacements - one where some keys started failing (as in they'd either get stuck down or up randomly) and another one where the touchbar started acting really weird (no wakeups, hangs etc..) which was just as bad because they moved escape key to "touch" bar. Go figure.
I think people are mostly complaining about the direction the last update took, such as the touchbar which seems more targeted at less experienced computer users and lack of RAM options beyond 16gb, etc.
For most purposes, even dev ones, they are very nice. Stable, reliable, performant. They might not be the top-of-the-line laptops but they are awesome at getting things done - as long as you don't want to impose your own requirements on it (OS, storage, RAM, etc.)
I do have to agree that they are damn expensive though. I cringe at the thought of replacing my old one and am NOT doing that unless its imperative. :|
If everyone here used Windows, I'd probably begrudgingly switch.
I've seen developers waste an entire week trying to get basic things like docker to run on Windows...
I'm sure things have gotten better in Windows land, but now that I already have my Macbook, the impetus for change is just not there...
I was "that one jackass who uses Linux instead of OSX" at a previous company. At my current job, I use a MBP like everyone else.
I don't think the MBP sucks; for me, an external keyboard and Bluetooth mouse solve almost all the annoyances. I find that things work a little more smoothly when I'm using the same operating environment as everyone else. Getting help when things don't work is easier, too. I have confidence that things like screen sharing will work and not cause me grief. If there's an app that my company wants to use, I just download and run it without checking if there's a Linux version.
The bottom line is that it's a lot of little conveniences that add up, with little downside.
I love the trackpad of MBPs. The aesthetics and physical build are good. The OS hardly ever gets in my way. The UI has been stable and usable and improving over the last 6 years of use. Apple's hardware service has been great (had video card issue a couple of years ago - $200 flat rate fix got me new motherboard, new screen with top cover, new video card). It has all the ports I need. Magsafe connector is genious. The display is crystal clear and high res.
I have had a genuinely good experience with my 2012 MBP. Barring bad hardware luck and missteps by Apple like the touch bar, people complaining about MBPs are being nitpicky.
The issues with the latest macbooks are real and severe, but running windows or linux, even on nice hardware like an X1, remains a sufficiently annoying and disruptive change to stop people. We can all hope that eventually this will change, but as of right now I don't see a forcing function.
Traditionally, that description is applied to democracy...
This 2015 model comes with MagSafe, USB-A, and a physical Escape key: all features you won't find on the newest model.
I won't be buying another Mac. But I do love this one.
Next laptop will probably be some Dell XPS, Lenovo X1, or Surface Pro. It'll depend on what I'll need at work.
Now the software though... so, many, bugs!
This things are top of my list. I use windows PC just for gaming. :)
I had been very happy with a succession of MacBook Airs, and when my machine died end of 2016, I wanted to get a new laptop running macOS, and they were basically all years old - except the shiny new MBP, which I got (despite saying they suck, for the price at any rate).
Most of my friends who rail against macbook pro are about the keyboard issues. This model has the older style keyboard and none of the issues.
Would never buy it with my own money, but it kind of works although I still could not get macvim to read my font settings from .vimrc
My next workhorse will still be X1 nextgen, but with regular 1080p resolution and matte screen. Much much better. Like my Zenbook at home -- which is ideal for me, but less powerful for work-related tasks.
Apple should devote more effort to the MBP lineup (in particular a higher end machine with up to 64 GB of ECC RAM like Dell and HP offer), but the MBPs hit a sweet spot for development in many ways.
You can always run Linux in a VM if you really need to do something with Linux...
ChromeOS with Linux apps support + Android for mobile / desktop (like samsung dex dock) will kill them all !!!
and
trackpad size is like salt, you can have too much.
My next laptop will be a Surface.
Well of course it is. Data isn't some magically objective set of golden truth, it's just a collection of recorded observations.
If the only observations are negative, it's still data. Data doesn't self-testify as to its holisticity or accuracy.
I could compile daily records of my personal experiences commuting on the bus. That's still data even without the driver's perspective.
I love my macbook, but mainly I love having a *nix based operating system. Windows is starting to get it and so in the next iteration of hardware I might switch over.
and there are always people that just don't know better
and mbp ca. 2015 is pretty usable and not terribly expensive
That being said, as PC hardware goes, MacBook Pro is at least tolerable.
I tend to agree with him.
That's not true at all. The Macintosh OS easily requires more tweaks than Windows to do things like Python, Go, Node.js and Rust.
Everything is better on Windows.
Other than that - can’t stand Apple, iOS or Macs.