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Comment by JumpCrisscross | Hacker News Reader

One community particularly harmed by academic cheating is foreign students, particularly those from China and India.

Cheating amongst foreign students, particularly those from India and China, occurs at elevated frequencies [1]. But there is money to be made. Universities earn fat tuitions. And parades of scumbags take exams, write papers and falsify figures for a fee. The result is limited enforcement in the specific, i.e. against offenders and facilitators, in favor of a presumption of guilt in the general, i.e. against all foreign students from China and India.

I personally know honest individuals who had to overcome a presumption of cheating at school, at interviews and in the workplace. And it isn't just the cheaters who are complicit.

[1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/foreign-students-seen-cheating-...

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When visiting a university in China, I saw a prominently displayed list of students who were caught cheating in the most recent term. I haven't yet seen such lists in American universities.

That’s because American universities don’t put your name on a list when you cheat. They expel you.

Actually, not usually for first offenses (from my experience as college instructor)

But usually only for first offenses (which in my experience still automatically fail that class).

Could you explain? Policies and experiences will differ

I mean that there is usually very limited tolerance for repeat cheating, in the small amount of experience I have. You might not get expelled at first offense (unless you are leading a cheating ring of some sort, something that happened at my high school) or it involves publishing research, but a second or third generally does result in expulsion.

This is assuming that the school actually reached an incriminating verdict, ignoring possible incompetence and/or apathy towards catching and "convicting" cheaters.

They expel you or they sweep it under the rug and do nothing at all.

My partner is finishing their masters in China currently (native Chinese). The levels of cheating that go on within her course alone are mind boggling:

1. Girls asking their would-be boyfriends to complete their essays and attend modules.

2. Purchasing completed essays from Taobao.

3. Copy pasting others work from Baidu with only name alterations.

4. Paying exam setters for exam questions.

Of course this is anecdotal but she has often tried to explain the culture of "Getting. good result is more important than how you got it". Cheating and succeeding shows you're resourceful. Getting caught is the only shame. The pressure and competition drives people to cheat because if you don't, you're left behind by everyone else who is.

I've observed all of these in the USA. I suspect this sort of thing transcends cultural and international borders.

Possibly amusing anecdote: I know a smart* technical colleague who wrote at least 2 PhD dissertations for former romantic partners. As in "best dissertation award" + famous people on committee + etc , etc. The former romantic partners went on to have distinguished careers in management.

* Depending on your point of view.

The level of patent / trademark infringement disagrees a bit with your statement.

Management huh? Sounds like they were training to take credit for others work all along.

>I know a smart* technical colleague who wrote at least 2 PhD dissertations for former romantic partners

This is very hard to believe. From my experience this just couldn't work without near full time commitment by the ghost writer. The cheater would also have to be very familiar with the dissertation--to the point where they could have just written it themselves.

Pulling this off twice (or more since you said at least twice) is basically beyond belief (unless we're talking about a very disreputable university).

A PhD dissertation isn't something you can just turn in and you're done. And it's generally the result of years of work.

I find it plausible in a narrow sense of “write” that doesn't mean performing the substantive work, but merely assembling the formal written presentation of that work.

It depends but I don't really view that as full on cheating then. It'd be nice for them to actually write a bit of it (otherwise, they're going to have a tough time writing papers once they're out of grad school) but the actually bulk of work is the real thing.

Also, you can't cheat on a defense. If you can, then your Ph.D is worthless and the institution you got it from is near worthless.

Reread learc83's comment and it's really true. You can't just turn in your thesis. Moreover, you have to defend it, and your committee will tear into it even on the minutiae (happened during my defense) so it doesn't matter how well you know it if it isn't your work because if it isn't your work, you won't be able to defend it. The only conclusion I can see is they are crap profs/schools but that doesn't square with the "famous people on committee" bit.

Even in PhDs there are people who slip through the cracks.

I knew a PhD who in a postdoc would routinely plagerize work (lifted verbatim from other papers, passed off as own work). I would be shocked if they didn’t do this to some degree in their thesis too.

This was from a relatively good university in the UK.

Sure some people plagiarize, but plagiarizing an entire dissertation is a much different. What are you going to do when you have to defend?

Also it takes a good bit longer to get a PhD in the US compared to the UK. In the US most STEM PhDs take around 5 years to finish--that's a long time to fake it without anyone noticing.

Don’t know about the US system. But I can imagine it can happen, at least in the UK system which I’m farmiliar with.

External examiner who is in a related, but not same field for example. Or they’re just a buddies with the advisor and only give softball questions etc.

The defense in the UK is not seen as a big deal, I don’t know anyone who has failed.

I can't imagine someone who isn't very familiar with their dissertation successfully defending here.

Also to even get to that point were the advisor thinks you're ready to defend would require constant back and forth your advisor. Then committee is going to grill you. And finally the vast majority of dissertation defenses end with recommended changes. It really would require full time devotion on the part of the ghostwriter, and excellent acting on the part of the candidate. Not to mention familiarity with the thesis to the point that they could have just written it themselves.

I can see someone helping out a lot with writing it, but there is no way someone could just do your dissertation for you at a reputable US school in a STEM field outside of some very rare fluke. A person doing this 2 or more times with different SOs--someone is lying.

Many people in the US have a low opinion of UK and Continental PhD programs. Perhaps this is part of the reason?

I think you’re correct in your last point (and others, though I have no direct experience).

I guess I’m skeptical that any qualification is 100% effective at evaluating/training (but that possibly says more about my own biases).

I think your colleague may be lying. It’s next to impossible to be granted a PHD you didn’t write yourself after years of hard work.

It’s really hard to even have your work accepted by the review board if the empirical evidence and the methods aren’t solid.

A PHD is not a candidate or a bachelor, it’s where your work is reviewed by a board of experts in your field. Often some members of the board won’t necessarily want you to pass either, because it’s very likely they disagree with your thesis.

I mean, it’s a cute anecdote but there is virtually no chance it actually happened.

Out of curiosity, do you have a PHD?

That's the exact same thing that happened to the cycling sport.

I guess this might explains where there are so many cheaters in online games that are Chinese. Results are prioritized about integrity and self-respect I suppose.

You'll notice that 2 items in your list are about having money. If you come from a well off background, then you care about getting your degree, but not about actually acquiring skills/knowledge. Once you graduate you'll get a fictitious job for your parents' company, or something like that.

I'm not sure if any data is available/accessible on the topic, but I'd be willing to wage that the young Chinese person who is the first of their family to attend university cares much more about understanding the material so they can then get a high paying job than those who can afford to buy essays from Taobao.

That would likely be a major FERPA violation.

In the US what happens if someone on that list kills themselves? Lawsuit from hell probably, at the very least.

You'd have a very hard time making that lawsuit go anywhere, I think.

It isn't just students that are cheating, it goes all the way up to the top of academia. I know a professor that reviews for a major journal who says he can't even keep up with the submissions from Chinese researchers because most of the time the entire paper is plagerised, the submission is canned without a second glance. Fucking sucks for the legitimate Chinese students and researchers but I guess when, "if you can cheat, then cheat." becomes one of the most well known idioms in your culture, you can't be too surprised. Just have to try extra hard to break the mold, I guess.

I think you are probably talking about wealthy students who gets into Ivy league through $2M+ donations. Vast majority of foreign students are too finance constrained even to survive with basic needs, let alone go shopping for paid cheating.

> I think you are probably talking about wealthy students who gets into Ivy league through $2M+ donations

The BBC article to which this thread is attached talks of a company advertising "essay[s]...starting at just $18.00 per page" [1]. Furthermore, the documented frequencies of foreign students cheating is too large to explain with solely income discrepancy.

[1] https://edubirdie.com

> Vast majority of foreign students are too finance constrained even to survive with basic needs, let alone go shopping for paid cheating.

Where did you get this idea? Foreign students are overwhelmingly paying the foreign student tuition (much higher than domestic tuition) without receiving any financial aid.

Exactly. Foreign students also have to prove they can support themselves (on top of paying full price for tuition) before they're even allowed in. The majority of them are pretty well off.

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