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Comment by matwood | Hacker News Reader

Siri is definitely Apples biggest weakness, but the headphone jack? The phone comes with a little adapter. If you're a person who has tons of nice headphones laying around, but a couple more adapters and call it a day. Is it a bit of inconvenience at first? Sure, but don't act like there is no way to plug in headphones or that it's the end of the world.

And Duo? I'm a tech person and I can't keep all of the Google communication options straight. iMessage and FaceTime are dead simple and work.

Finally, if your daughter is having that many issues take it into an Apple store. I know there are anecdotes of bad service at Apple stores, but by and large the service they provide is great.

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Royally disagree with the headphone jack. That is a huge issue that I don't ever see an end to. You never know when you need a headphone jack and there is no realistic way to carry an adapter all the time. And that is even if I'm willing to buy $100 worth of worthless adapters and do my best to sprinkle them out in my life.

Friends car? Stereo in the summer vacation house?

Buying bluetooth headphones doesn't mitigate this in any sense.

Many stereos and cars should accept Bluetooth connections by now, so I’m not sure what the problem is.

1. Many more don't. Home stereos typically don't. Regular radios typically don't.

2. Bluetooth is pure crap, the UX for connecting and managing temporary devices is absolutely insane on all devices. This is something you do on your own car but is a major hassle to setup for temporary occasions. And hardly something that is done on a whim just to demo something. It is just that bad.

And this is even before considering compatibility issues and security issues, of which there are plentiful. And cars also have this habit of trying to harvest all your contacts etc. (Wonder how many contacts are floating around in rental cars... sigh)

Agree, bluetooth is a knock-out factor for me. I refuse to use it, it's been a total PITA any time I've tried.

same, when it decides to work, it can work well, but most the time it doesn't, or is a hassle. My car just refuses my phone for some reason.

cable > connect > go. Every time without fail

Most devices can't remember more than 1 phone at a time, so you have to continually put the thing back into pairing mode. Every device has a different way of putting it into pairing mode. Sometimes there's a code to type, adding an additional step. Then it's several clicks on the phone to connect to the device.

Plugging in a cable is often a lot simpler, and it works every time.

The problem is that people want a headphone jack.

More stereos and cars don't have BT than do (significantly many more in my experience). Bluetooth pairing is a faf compared to just plugging in a jack, and many devices still only remember pairing with two devices or just one so your friend may have to repair when you are done. Double adaptors (I still see people sharing a single audio source on headphones that way) are a thing with simple audio jack that there isn't a BT solution for (at least when I've tried phones won't play down two BT audio sinks at the same time).

I've used the audio jack on my phones only a couple of times in the last year or so as I do use BT for general headphone use, but that is a couple of times more than zero and in all those cases BT would not have been an option.

Of course the obvious answer is: if you want a jack and Apple doesn't provide one on their devices then switch allegiance - but a lot of people feel tied to Apple for other reasons (lock in through apps they'd have to repurchase on Android, lock-in through add-on device compatibility, or just the extra usability that comes from personal or group familiarity) and would like to stay without losing that feature.

Another option is bluetooth receivers, which can be bought quite cheaply these days: pair one of those with your iDevice and plug other devices into that when needed. That is an extra device (a very small one, but still an extra) to carry around and remember to keep charged and I doubt it will happen much because people won't even carry charging adaptors around with them (the amount of times I've have the look that suggests it is my fault that someone can't borrow my portable battery because their device doesn't follow the same standard as everything else and they didn't bring an adaptor!)

The real answer here is to use the lightning -> 3.5mm adapter which comes with the iPhone, I believe.

But then I cannot plug my headphones into my brand new laptop...

Well, you could remove the headphones from the adapter and plug them into your laptops 3.5mm port.

If Apple was using USB C like they should be, then you could just plug them straight into that port.

You forgot the /s

But I cannot plug my headphones AND charge my phone.

IIRC you can't charge at the same time as using the included one, and need to pay extra for the bulkier one that allows charging and use of a 3.5mm jack at the same time.

That is OK much of the time, but a faf is you want use your iDevice for music while working for some hours or while mobile for long enough that you might normally plug in a portable battery.

Unless they've started including the two function adaptor as standard but that will irritate people who don't want the extra bulk...

They do not include that one as standard, as far as I know.

If you are someone who charges your phone while listening to music on a regular basis, then I can see the lack of headphone jack being an issue.

The real solution for that problem, in my opinion, is to just put two USB C or two lightning ports on the phone. They have much more usage than a 3.5mm port. Two places to charge from, charge and have external storage attached, etc.

Maybe that adapter gets so popular that a phone designer comes up with the revolutionary idea of integrating it into the phone itself.

Those who were around during the days of early 'home computers' - think Commodore bread boxes, Sinclair door stops etc - might remember the evolution from those devices which generally lived in a jungle of cords emenating from their sides and backs, connecting them to power supplies and peripherals to the more streamlined versions which came later - Commodore 128D, Amstrad all-in-ones, various species of MSX and yes, the original Apple Macintosh - which had most of the essentials built-in. Having one of those on your desk really separated you from the plebs who still lived in the jungle.

Apple seems to have forgotten that part of its heritage.

Almost every modern car now has USB or bluetooth, even cheap entry level compact cars.

> Friends car? Stereo in the summer vacation house?

Bluetooth speakers are pretty much ubiquitous nowadays. I don't think I've seen an aux cord in 2 years.

Why should a tech company design for old tech? Do you also dislike monitors that don't have VGA just in case? I'm not saying there are scenarios where that would be an issue. But I think you overestimate the issues and most people really don't care.

Bluetooth has quality issues compared with an AUX cable unless you're using the fancy codecs that aren't supported by most devices.

Also, anecdotally, I drive a Chevy from 2012 with no bluetooth for anything but answering calls. Cars without bluetooth are still very common.

My last 3 cars had Bluetooth in them. Each had some kind of issue with it. For some reason car manufacturers put in crap that's anywhere between incompatible and randomly failing when connecting to flagship phones. And there's no real way to report an issue back to then. So they do have Bluetooth and I still use the aux cable with them.

A typical interaction with bluetooth audio on both my iPhone 6 and Pixel 2 goes like this:

Press pause

Wait 5 seconds

Press pause again, only the original pause has now registered finally, and turned back into a play button, so the audio is playing again.

Turn on NPR instead.

Not everyone lives in your world.

> Why should a tech company design for old tech?

a) Apple isn't a tech company, it's a style / aspiration company that sells some bits and bobs that occasionally are high-tech, and b) 3.5mm headphone jacks have been around since the 1950's -- so presumably this was 'old tech' when Apple first came up with the iPod ... and yet ... and yet, they still put this 'old tech' into every device since then, up until the last iteration of their mobile phone. 'Old tech' is a canard.

(I'm not a fan of apple, but) I wouldn't say "Apple isn't a tech company". Even a little. They design their own chips, software, and hardware, and sometimes push the tech industry (independent of whether or not they're subjectively innovative). Their success definitely comes from their marketing and design, but that's practically the norm for tech companies.

>Not everyone lives in your world.

Exactly, sometimes I think people forget not everyone owns the latest and greatest of each and every product category.

For example, I finally gave in and bought a Pixel 2, but I've also held onto my '03 Jetta and still use a cassette adapter to play music. I'm used to shuffling cassette adapters between vehicles, so I speak from experience when I say that buying extra adapters or always having one on hand is too much of a hassle and I'll end up stuck with just the radio on occasion.

Even if I were to get a new car with bluetooth, I'd still be hosed in: my SO's car ('06 Rav4), my parents' cars ('99 Wrangler and '02 A6), my best friend's car (Saturn Ion), and my sister's car (older Impreza). In fact, the only car I'm ever in that has bluetooth is my brother-in-law's Mazda. Even solely looking at playing music in the car, I'd still need an adapter the overwhelming majority of the time. Now maybe my circle hangs onto cars longer than average, but I don't think it's too far off the norm.

The simple fact that, with my not-so-old iPhone 7, I cannot listen to wired headphones and also charge the device is ridiculous.

Bluetooth is lossy compression. There are plenty of reasons to still stick with AUX and the 3.5mm jack. It does make a difference in sound quality. Additionally if I'm traveling and forget my headphones, it will cost me $5 to get a pair to get me through the week. Bluetooth headphones are more expensive.

There is a guy who was able to fit a 3.5mm jack in his iPhone X. They just chose not to do it. It's not like having a 3.5mm jack excludes you from also having Bluetooth technology. We've had both in phones for years. Apple just wanted to sell more air pods. I'm not hating on Apple, they're a business, but to act like Bluetooth is a strict upgrade is just blatantly wrong and I will continue to use my AUX jack.

The reason the headphone jack had to die was so they could waterproof it.

There are waterproof jacks...

There were waterproof phones with headphone jacks before the iPhone X. See some of the Samsung Galaxies as an example.

I'm willing to believe that you never know when you need a headphone jack but most people actually do know when they will need a headphone jack.

Going on a plane? Probably bring an adapter. Like to listen to music in your car? Keep an adapter in your car. Listen to music at work? Keep an adapter at work.

> Going on a plane? Probably bring an adapter. Like to listen to music in your car? Keep an adapter in your car. Listen to music at work? Keep an adapter at work.

So, I should have travel, car & work adapters instead of a working, non-proprietary, universal standard?

Headphone jacks work. They work really well. There's nothing wrong with them, and they don’t need replacement.

Bluetooth sometimes works, and sometimes doesn’t. It tends to lag. It’s just … not that great.

You can if you don't want to keep track of a single adapter. I personally have two, one for the car and one for everywhere else.

You can blame Apple for using lightning if you have problems with non universal, non proprietary standards. USB C is both universal and non proprietary. It's even capable of sending analog audio exactly like the 3.5mm port does so you don't need an adapter with a DAC in it, just a USB C -> whatever you want to plug your phone into cable.

That said, most phones (including my Pixel 2) don't support that feature and require an external DAC in the adapter. I only bring it up because many people don't seem to realize that USB C is capable of doing anything the 3.5mm port can do.

>Headphone jacks work. They work really well. There's nothing wrong with them, and they don’t need replacement.

The PS/2 ports worked for your mouse and keyboard. They did have some issues but I would be okay with saying that they worked really well. They didn't need to be replaced with USB. They were replaced with USB anyways. That's the whole point of USB. It's universal. As long as USB is capable of transmitting audio then there is no reason to keep the 3.5mm port around. It's redundant.

Everything I need is in my backpack. There is seriously no place for a selection of different dongles.

I understand it may is a non issue for some people, for others however it is not even a real option.

Another important argument which is brought up in this excellent EFF article is how Bluetooth allows for DRM.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/09/analog-last-defense-ag...

My friends never have the aux cord with them.

I carry one of these on me: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MJMV0GU/ref=sspa_dk_detail_0?ps... when I travel to a summer vacation home.

Never have an issue.

> Friends car? Stereo in the summer vacation house?

I regret finally "jumping ship" and getting an Iphone 8 plus soley because of this. I am experiencing the exact same thing with the f___king stupid MBP and needing to carry a dongle on me at all times in order to present. It's absolutely infuriating.

After holding off for so long (Iphone 8 plus was my first iphone), and having androids since Samsung Galaxy S3, my recent phone was a Note and I really don't get what I was missing out on. I really miss my swype keyboard, the apple keyboard is an absolute pain, and it's "AI" autocorrect is worthless. Siri is worthless. Facetime was the only appeal and even that has been minimized now.

With the direction they went with the IPhone X screen real estate, this will without a doubt be my first and last IPhone I ever buy.

Check out GBoard for iOS, it's the google keyboard that supports swype

You're right about the headphone jack for day-to-day use, but there are edge cases everywhere. I was at a birthday celebration a few weeks ago where someone wanted to play a song from their phone. But they couldn't, because they didn't have the adapter and neither did the DJ. I mean, these things happen. But it used to be the case that we had one, universal plug that would work with everything, and I miss that already.

Usually a DJ will request the file to import into the playlist so they don't get disruptions to playback from texts, phone calls, etc. I'd say it sounds like they found a polite way of telling that person "no".

I also wonder if anyone considered sending the media over another protocol. There's BT, NFC, IR, MMS, OTA, Wifi, sharing sites, etc. And if the DJ had 1/4", XLR, USB, HDMI, optical, SPDIF, or RCA, then they'd still have needed adapters, splitters, or converters.

None of my audio equipment has 1/8" inputs, so I'm about as sympathetic to the universal argument as I was when cars stopped having CD-audio players and roughly as optimistic in our ability to get over this as a people.

Head phone jack is a big issue.

I have no desire to keep one on me at all times on the off chance that I will need it.

I just stop listening to music or using the device for that use case.

Basically dropping the functionality of the phone significantly, unless I’m home or near my tech storage locker.

This is assanine design.

Why not just keep the dongle attached to your headphones?

That's what you do. But what if you have several headphones? (I can barely realistically buy an extra adapter for my phone, never mind the ridiculous cost)

I've got two headphones (good sound or active noise cancellation) that I use and every single day I have to keep extra track of the adapter to make sure that I didn't leave it with the other pair - that's even if I don't use it. I mostly use it for long calls but that's typically just once a week.

But even that doesn't save you from times where you don't bring any headphones but still want to listen in your car or any other scenario. Has happened multiple times to me already despite all that hassle.

Also, a big use case is to listen to music while charging your phone at work etc. With an adapter that isn't possible.

The headphone adapters from Apple and Google cost $9 dollars each. If you can afford to buy a $700 phone, you can afford to spend $30 bucks on some extra adapters if you want them. In most cases, at least. I suppose availability of the adapters might be an issue in some areas as well.

Yeah, exactly. $20 doesn't even cover shipping costs. And doesn't solve the problem of having to bring it all the time.

I need to literally spend $50 to be seriously inconvenienced because the manufacturer wanted to save $0.2 ?

Also, no. We still have some to wait before anyone produces a $700 phone worth the money.

To be honest, if I can afford a 700 dollar phone, I can far more easily afford a 500 dollar older phone which has a headphone jack.

I don’t need the irritation of managing extra jacks for an obvious attempt to force me to give up a standard configuration.

No thanks.

My main headphones are huge audiotechnicas which I couldn’t wear in a car or at work without it being a massive pain.

It’s a massive pain.

Which headphones?

And then, when you want to plug them into an (even Apple) laptop, you detach the adaptor and forget to bring it with you.

That is true of the iPhone adapters but a USB C adapter with a DAC inside will work with any laptop that has a USB C port.

So that draws power and does that work with all phones? That's quite the "workaround".

It will work with any phone or PC with a USB C port as long as the OS supports USB audio devices. As far as I know, all the major OS's support those. Even iOS if you have a lightning -> USB adapter.

Technically it draws power but it's not going to use more power than an internal headphone jack does. They are both just a DAC and a small headphone amp. The only difference is that one is inside the device and one is outside the device.

In a few years, once the idea of having a device without a USB C port seems strange, headphones and AUX cables will probably just come with a DAC/amp built in to them and nobody except audio enthusiasts will care about not having a 3.5mm port on their device. That is, if Apple decides to embrace USB C on iOS devices which I think they will.

"It will work". Just as bluetooth? Humanity has serious issues getting serial to work over USB, yet this will just work? Across all OSes? We can't even make USB-C CABLES correctly, but THIS is a sure thing? Even the cheap ones everyone will buy? Or the expensive ones that has the same hardware but a nicer box/cable?

We won't have apple compatible cables, android compatible cables etc.? We won't have situations where that popular brand of "cables" doesn't work on new Samsungs/xxx?

Let's pretend that will be the case this time around?

Honestly I think audio enthusiasts are the only users for which that isn't the most absurd idea ever. Audio enthusiasts could use a decent DAC and for the first time combine regular hardware (wide selection of phones) and still get decent output. For everyone else though a headphone jack would be several orders of magnitudes better and cheaper. And guess what, it just works. I know people have done their darndest to make the microphone over 3.5mm experience as miserable as possible but despite that we still have/had a universal way to transmit stereo audio.

There are no decent alternatives even on the horizon. There haven't been brought up a single argument for the removal of it other than it isn't so bad to spend 10% of the device on adapters that you always need to carry. Seriously?

Add to that, we can't even make passive USB-C to 3.5mm adapters properly!

But even that doesn't matter now when the Pixel 2 (etc.) has been released without even an internal DAC. People buy these overpriced passive adapters but they obviously won't work, so people leave 1-star reviews and have to return the cables.

This is a fuckup of epic proportions.

Passive USB-C to 3.5mm are the problem and should be avoided, in my opinion.

A USB-C to 3.5mm with a DAC inside can be used in any USB C port. A passive adapter will only work in some USB C ports. I don't expect USB C ports on laptops will ever have a DAC behind them.

The problem is that USB-C for audio doesn't solve any problem.

Obviously you'd use the 3.5mm jack on your laptop.

In this case, it will actually just work. People have been using USB audio DAC's since at least 2002. Unless you're using something aimed at professional musicians with a lot of inputs and outputs, it's just plug and play with class compliant drivers. Linux, MacOS, Windows, Android, and iOS all just work.

Obviously, until Apple switches to USB C, we will have separate USB C and lightning cables. That's inconvenient.

The argument for removal is that it's redundant. The USB or lightning port can transmit audio, so remove the 3.5mm and suddenly you have more space inside the phone to put stuff and it's probably slightly cheaper/easier to water proof.

edit: I feel compelled to mention that 3.5mm has issues as well. Cheap 3.5mm cables are often slightly too large or slightly too small which cause contact issues and wear on the port over time. Dirt/fuzz get pushed down into the port sometimes. Scratches or dirt can make the connection bad and cause noise when moving the plug. For a while we didn't have a standard TRRS configuration but I think we figured that one out now, for the most part. You can actually buy a 3.5mm TS cable which is missing a channel on the normal TRS or TRRS and therefore will not work, while looking almost identical to the correct cable.

Course you have more space- people aren’t using the phone for that use case anymore.

My phone upgrade is now always going to be an iPhone 6 Or I move to Android.

> The argument for removal is that it's redundant.

That is it? That just can not be the reason. Even if that were true it doesn't make the slightest sense to force this change overnight. Most phones doesn't even have USB-C.

...and you can't charge the damn thing while using the headphones... what the hell?

Get a Belkin dual lightning/3.5mm adapter. Look. I personally think this is typical Apple removing a legacy connector a beat or two too soon. But $50 or so in adapters later I have zero issue.

> But $50 or so in adapters later I have zero issue.

Yep, sounds like an Apple product.

I have one pair of nice headphones. One. The adapter is an inconvenience I don't need. I've had my iPhone 7 for a year and this is still a vexing issue.

If you have one pair of headphones then leave the adapter connected to them.

Every other device doesn't need the adapter. So I have to manage keeping track of the adapter, still. No thank you.

If they are really nice, then the cord is removable, and you can buy the Lightning-to-headphone jack cord which is now available.

Boom. Solved.

I agree Google has screwed up the choice of communication offerings. But from a use case point, one can very well argue why need one for messaging and one for talking (iMessage and Facetime). Instead WhatsApp does everything in one - dead simple. (In fact, Skype did this too but they never properly capitalized).

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