Why I Left the U.S. 20 Years Ago and Why I Won't Be Coming Back
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We're not going to let HN go down in the flames and fumes of nationalistic battles. We ban accounts that do that, so please don't do that. Do this instead: when someone provokes you with an egregious comment, flag it (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html) and/or email us at hn@ycombinator.com to be sure to get moderator attention. Don't reply, and especially don't reply aggressively.
In other words, call the fire department, don't pour fuel, and don't start fires of your own. Sounds easy, but it's not, because it requires tolerating the burn of annoyance inside oneself instead of taking it out on the commons. That's actually what tolerance means. It's a physical process, just like any structure can tolerate a certain load before snapping. Containing this energy does not feel good, but it's the capacity we all need to build if if we want this community to survive as a place for curiosity.
> "I grew up believing that having money was an objective to strive for and that life was a ruthless competition. I worked hard in school and got a good job because that was what was expected of me. That was the path that was supposed to bring me happiness, except I followed that path, and I wasn’t happy."
Finally, she ends up living in Europe:
> "I certainly could say more about the work-life balance provided by the 35-hour workweek, the five weeks of paid vacation I enjoy each year, the two years paid unemployment benefits I would receive should I lose my job, my access to free health care, paid maternity leave, affordable child care, free education from age 3 through to university or the state-provided retirement pension I will receive at age 65."
The funny thing is, that as someone who grew up in Europe, with all those things she raves about, I feel exactly like she did in the beginning of the story. I feel like being in the rat race just like she did. Those 5 weeks of paid vacation feel more like an insult than a benefit. You get to taste a little bit of freedom for a short while and then it's back to dayprison. Retirement at 65 is a pipe dream, the boomers spent all the retirement money already and retirement age is slowly rising (currently at 67), by the time I turn 67 in 30 years I'm sure it has been raised even further or more likely there won't be any kind of state pension anymore.
Not that I expect to ever get that old. 8 hour workdays are insane, it's an arbitrary number and yet the whole of society is based around it. It leaves people too exhausted to enjoy life and causes so much stress I'm actually surprised anyone makes it to pension age. I fully expect to die of a stress-related heart attack or similar way before I get to enjoy any kind of pension.
We always want more and better, right? We might be different from the Americans in the details (albeit important ones), but we aren't that different in the big picture worldview.
So if politicians want to keep spending like they do now (assuming deficits do not matter and do not raise spending further due to interest), a 30 year old person will retire at age 104 at this rate.
As I expect a cure for ageing to be available within the next couple of decades, this basically means no more pensions.
Now imagine not having them. I moved from Australia where (due to my contract) I had 6 weeks per year, now in Japan I have two. Feels a lot worse than having them.
> 8 hour workdays are insane
8 hour work days are a breeze, I've regularly done 12-14, and not unknown to have done a few 20hours (sleep at work, I'll be doing this next week a few times due to staff shortages).
I do agree with you about retirement though, kinda worrying that all that money I paid into my Australian superannuation is locked up and will probably not be there when I eventually retire.
On paper, things look great. I save about $2500 a month after my own bills and helping siblings (parents cannot work). I have a good deal of investments already built up and max out my 401k.
However, I really can't afford to buy more than a dumpster. Its going to be several years until I can purchase a home but at the current housing spikes, it's going to be out of reach even then. I could just move, but the job prospects aren't amazing in cheaper parts of the country.
My management just does not care about me. Its about their goals. I'm just a tool or a service to help them achieve those goals. Services get sunset. Services get deprecated.
Again, my compensation is amazing on paper considering my age, but I am over worked and under constant stress and anxiety. I don't take many vacations because the anxiety of my work is overpowering.
I have two weeks of vacation banked, but even if I took off, I can never deflate and distress. I don't know how at this point.
My work is pretty much all my life... oh and commuting.
I know there are people with alot less than me, far more student debt, etc. I am grateful for what I do have and cannot begin to imagine what it's like for the folks living paycheck to paycheck, although I am terrified that my career stands at the whims of egotistical men, and I could easily end up in that paycheck to paycheck situation.
I occasionally see headlines on news sites while reading on my phone during commutes... "x analyst predicts y company to hit trillion dollar by z date."
Nobody stops to ask who is reaping the majority of that and at what cost?
Hmm...I think you'll find that the creature comforts are actually a lot more comfy in most of Europe, which is of course a very large and diverse area. Of course, it will take you a while to figure those out, because things are different.
I've never felt as weak an affinity with the USA as I do now, but habit and inertia have kept me here so far...
That you include chains of whatever on the list of downsides to leaving your country, says something. Maybe something about you, maybe something about your country. It's not good what it says though.
EDIT: I think you might be the kind of person the author is talked about when she says "brainwashed". If the specific franchise of restaurant that you like is such a huge factor in your life, maybe you've just been brainwashed. And this is not even mentioning the breathtaking ignorance of saying there's no good diners "in Europe".
I actually felt this when I moved from Europe to the US. Suddenly I had no idea where to buy food ingredients, kitchen items, etc that weren't too expensive but were not of crappy quality either. Even the relative value of things (ex. is a $4 loaf of bread expensive or cheap? Converting to the previous currency and comparing prices doesn't work at all). Also, Europeans don't realize but the US has a lot more choices for almost everything (well, I guess except broadband Internet and some other things, heh). That's great in general but it's overwhelming to the newcomer.
I guess people in that city feel the same ... they need their familiar chains in their cookie cutter neighborhoods or they feel lost.
LOLWUT ?
She mentions she lives in the south of France. I don't think she has to worry about access to good food. Why would anyone who moved to Europe want to go back to the US for their shitty food ?
So if not Guadeloupe, it surely is somewhere in the Caribbean
I’ve been there several times for conferences and I’ve always been happy to leave. The constant feeling of being bleed for cash at every opportunity coupled with the fake over sincerity is frustrating.
As an Irishman there is a strong connection between our countries and many colleagues have made the move and seem happy. I can’t imagine wanting to live there, at least in the world described in the article and around big city conference centers.
Also the chocolate is atrocious.
I remember a very poignant New Yorker cartoon, with a bunch of elderly gently WASP-ish looking folk and one whispering to another: "Money is life's report card".
Over here we don't consider that healthcare and education are a "government benefit". We consider them rights.
But you sound slightly offended. Like now you're trying to prove that some people like the USA. You don't have to prove anything dude.
I dont know that the second is necessarily bad, but it is an interesting distinction. However, it may be a false distinction. Child care leave may not require taking from the employer so much as establish that if the employer wants an employee’s work, a fair trade includes leave.
Like I said, I haven’t fully thought this one through.
I hear you, but I think the distinction isn't great because it's A) semantic more than anything, and B) too easy to take it into the realm of mental gymnastics, to the point the distinction loses all meaning. I could just as well argue that X right may not require taking from other people (in the form of taxes) so much as establish that if you want to be a part of our society (after all, no one is stopping you from leaving and go live in the jungle), a fair trade (i.e. the taxes you pay for the benefits you get) involves your taxes paying for X, and that this is true for all X.
I'm not going to ban you, because your recent history hasn't been as bad as this, but if you do this sort of flamewar on HN again, we will ban you. Please do not pour any trace of nationalistic poison, regardless of how badly other users are behaving. If you do, you're as bad as they are. This of course goes for every user, not just you.
Please (re-)read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and do a much better job of using this site as intended from now on.
I obviously disagree with the characterisation of what I said as "nationalistic poison", but I will no longer talk politics on HN to be on the safe side.
US health insurance costs about $13k a year for a family of 3, for a decent plan, and that’s if you pay for all of it yourself (ie you’re unemployed but wealthy, so don’t qualify for special rates). In-state tuition is also not too bad.
https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-infrastruct...
software developer is even less paid it seems:
https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-de...
So, at the end of the day, it's all about purchasing power. Which is very different depending on what economic band you're in and what place you live.
For instance, there's no question that Bill Gates would be worse off in the Swedish tax system than the US one.. but that's not true of all people.
Healthcare is a prime (but not exclusive) example of this.
The only scenario I can think of is to start in-office in SF, prove your value and then go remote after some time and maintain salary. I have not tried that yet.
You really violated the site rules quite egregiously here. Other commenters did too.
I'm from East Germany originally (used to live in the US for a decade). That country was the true successor of Prussia as far as militaristic traditions go. While we did have "gun control", so no weapons other than air guns at home for most people, shooting was very much part of culture. I was taught marching like a professional soldier as part of school, before job training and studying. Same goes for shooting (small caliber weapons), throwing hand grenades (replicas of hand grenades were used in throwing exercises during normal sports lessons), how to use chemical protection gear and a gas mask, and a lot more.
The real difference, and this is my point that I think is usually missed about US gun culture, was that never, ever did it occur to me as a gun-obsessed child that if I had more than two air guns at home, or even for those, that I should ever want to use weapons against my fellow citizens.
Weapons were always for only three purposes: sports, hunting (organized and government regulated and controlled, not "for fun") and military.
In all the discussions about US gun culture, to me this is the far larger factor than just having access to guns, that the thought that this could be used in "self defense" against your own people exists. I sure had a lot of "gun fantasies" as a child and would happily have owned a "real" gun, but never, ever would it have occurred to me that I could use this against people, except for in military conflict.
You can restrict access all you want, and I'm sure that will limit some problems, but to me it seems unless there is a much, much deeper change in attitude that will only be a band aid removing the worst symptoms of a problem that goes deeper and is much more broad. This probably cannot be changed though. It's an attitude I find in too many movies produced in the US (unless it's romance or comedy and has no guns), it's all about fighting/shooting people.
I think that problem is a mental illness / personality disorder epidemic among Americans under 35 that is being completely ignored.
I don't find this article particularly offensive, just extremely naive.
For all it's problems, in the U.S. we still enjoy both freedom of speech and freedom from the tyranny of socialized govt, both have reared it's ugly head in pretty spectacular ways recently..
Namely, you can end up in jail if you teach your dog to salute at Heil Hitler, or if you decide you want to present the middle finger to your govt overlords on a traffic cam, or if you think you might like to send your child to a different hospital that offers hope, no matter how grim the ultimate outcome, or if you defend yourself in your home from a robber with a knife.. Just to name a few..
The first and second amendments of the U.S. are unlike very few In the world. Statistically most people are very unlikely to encounter such gun crimes like school shootings, but you'd never know that because we have a media and culture driven by ratings and agenda.
But there is a lot of truth that people have much less value for life. That's not just a U.S. problem.. I'm a U.S. citizen, so I can criticize the mayor of London openly without fear, but their plans(or talks) to remove any and all knives from stores and the hands of their citizens is a pretty good example.. But no knife, no problem, you can do it pretty effectively with a truck, I recall 80 or so were killed a few years ago, and at least 10 were killed a few days ago in Toronto. And anyone with any sizeable amount of intellect could probably devise a plan that is highly effective by stealing a semi.. Someone with actual intelligence could probably devise a scheme to drop small IED's via drones and could probably be pretty lethal and remain effectively safe from capture, let alone any of the other mainstream methods..
And on top of it all, even with all the gun bans, one of the worst gun massacres in recent history occurred not in the U.S., but good old Europe.. Many countries have effectively banned all weapons, But that just means that the law abiding citizens are the ones who become defenseless.. I've sarcastically argued numerous times that the Charlie Hebdo attacks were fake news, and the people were just made up, after all, such firearms are actually banned there, so such an event isn't actually possible to happen, those weapons are banned..
It gets even better when looking at countries like Mexico, S. America etc, where the police may actually be part of the mob, flip a coin as to whether you'll survive if you call for help (I suppose if your passport is blue or from the euro block they probably try to take care of you for tourism sake)..
In any case, I think a recent episode of econtalk with Jonah Goldberg http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2018/04/jonah_goldberg.html summed up a lot of truths about the place we are at in our society, especially in the U.S.. It's quite worth a listen.. Because ultimately, though the above is bad, we often forget that gives have historically persecuted people far worse, and though it's 2018 (as if somehow that means something), it's still happening ( IRS/FBI)etc..
Ultimately, These are problems govt cannot solve, and the answer the govt will give might not be an answer that's good, for average Joe at least.. But I do think, in the U.S., It's a road we are heading down..
You cite the European Charlie Hebdo attack (where 12 people died) as 'one of the worst gun massacres in recent history' yet reveal your blind spot of the much more recent (American) Las Vegas Mandalay Bay shooting on 10/01/2017 where 58 were killed and a staggering 500+ were injured -- while attending a concert on the Vegas strip! This attack, from a 32nd floor hotel suite, truly stunned America in ways that have yet to be fathomed. Its just that these gun attacks keep coming and stealing away our attention. Witness the Sutherland Springs, TX church shooting where 27 people were killed, and then Parkland which has gained even more attention. And yet, American gun culture and politics will not permit even a Congressional debate for outlawing bump stocks, which to a large part, contributed to the loss of life at the Las Vegas shooting. No -- all you get are thoughts, prayers, a monument and don't forget the hospital bill on your way out.
1. She has dual French/US citizenship, says so in her Bio. Not sure what "Central America" has to do with anything. A lot of US citizens renounce their citizenship because of the insane tax requirements. But of course the US also makes renouncing very hard, for example taxing you on unrealized profits. It's a mess.
2. You find the article "naive"? How much experience do you have living outside the US, if I may enquire, for example in Europe?
3. Freedom of speech is actually quite comparable, and in many ways better, as for example corporations are prevented from denying your freedom of speech. The limitations the US corp. I worked for recently tried to put on employees were laughably illegal in Germany. Yes, we are a bit down on Nazi symbols. Can you guess why?
4. I would like to see what happens to you in the US if you give the middle finger to a police officer. Can you assert your 1st amendment rights from the grave?
5. "The first and second amendments of the U.S. are unlike very few In the world." Actually the first is pretty common, with very slight alterations. The second is uniquely US-American and, surprise, the US is a uniquely violent and deadly place.
6. Statistically, you are about 10x more likely to get shot in the US than you are in a Western European country. And at least 4x more likely to get killed in a homicide. So no, the violence in the US is not made up by the media, it is a statistical fact.
7. Whereas the much publicized terror attacks in Europe are exactly what you claim for the US, a statistical blip. They are only noticeable because (a) those countries are so much less violent overall and (b) media coverage of anything that can be counted as "terror" is of the charts.
8. Not sure what you mean with "one of the worst gun massacres". The Charles Hebdo attack? Sorry, that doesn't even crack the US top 10, and is not even a day's worth of gun homicides in the US.
2. I've lived in Germany for 8 years, Czech republic for 3, and a few shorter stints in several other countries. That experience or lack thereof doesn't preclude one from being able to make sound judgments or understand people. I find that people who tend to sandbox someone in like that usually have a deference to authority or to the "experts".
3. The only speech that needs protecting is hate and offensive speech. If you don't protect that, why bother with anything else, your safe so long as you don't commit a thoughtcrime..
4. I do think police brutality is starting to become an issue in the U.S. and it's unfortunate because groups like antifa and BLM distract from a very real issue that for many years, exacerbated under Bush, put on steroids under Obama, and I can't imagine Cheeto Jesus actually helping this problem. When you train cops like marines, dress them as marines, give them MRAPS and other equipment from the wars in the middle East, I'm not sure how ppl can believe they won't act as marines. On top of that, add in things like civil asset forfeiture and there are problems. That being said, I can tell you I've seen what the Polezei do if your simply under suspicion, or if you make some mistake. I've literally seen them handcuff someone and wail on them with that baton before taking them to jail for very little. And unlike the U.S., you're generally not suing them to get fair recourse, you shut your face, literally. However, in general, compared to some places, you can and for the most part do live your day to day life without being taxed by the police.
5- again. It's not a problem for you, you seem to be ok with whatever speech they have assigned to you. You think US is a uniquely violent and deadly place, how many countries have you lived in, because I can assure you, you don't say that after actually spending time in someplace that's truly violent and deadly.. Ignorance is bliss I suppose, try living Mexico or Pakistan for a few months. You'll literally worry about the police as much as much as you do about being taken for ransom monies. Wonderful ppl though..
6- we all cherry pick datas. how about these: https://crimeresearch.org/2016/01/compared-to-europe-the-us-...
https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/02/26/schools-are-still-o...
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-...
The truth of it is we should probably ban cars if we are really serious about saving innocent life Data is data, it says whatever you make it say.. statistically what they want to say.. Analysts invoke ahh number of methods to statistically say what they want their intended audience wants to hear. Which I find most silly, because people tend to hear What they want regardless of what's actually said..
7- I'm not even sure what this means. But I can clearly see your doing the same thing that you're accusing me of. I used to love living in Germany, and still do (I'd give anything for a good doner kebop). But I always noticed a widespread disdain for the Turks among my German friends though. To me it seemed quite foolish and something I was never really able to wrap my head around. But as I traveled even more, I realized, that most of western Europe is quite homogenous in its race and ideas. I think this sets the U.S. apart even further, and you can see many issues that are coming to head in Europe denote the ethnic shifts in the countries. You can say what you like, I can read as well.
8- those are different instances, as I said. My point with the Hebdo attack was that it actually didn't happen.. The firearms allegedly used are banned there. How could it possibly occur if it isn't actually possible because they didn't have the firearms, it was literally fake news......... /sarc
The worst attack did occur in Europe, in recent history anyway. Feel free to look it up...
The U.S. is changing. for better and for worse. We might be far more ethnically diverse, but we have far less diversity of thought now, that is really to its detriment I believe. And, as they implied in that podcast, more and more politics and govt is becoming the religion and the god for those without any belief system, and that is a dangerous path, that's what I see historically anyway. Who knows. It's 2018, maybe that's all silly stuff from the past.
She got her French citizenship in 2015, and according to the article visited the US in 2017. US citizens are required to enter the US under a US passport. Therefore yes, you are almost certainly correct that she is using her US passport, at the very least to visit the US. Otherwise, there appears to be no need for her to use it.
But .. so what? Would you change your mind if she did renounce US citizenship? And if so, why, and by how much?
She mentioned Honduras because after visiting there for a work-related trip she decided she wanted to experience living in another culture. There was nothing otherwise special about Honduras - to use your phrasing, I'll hazard that had she instead been in Germany or the Czech Republic she would have had the same thoughts.
She chose to first go to Guadeloupe, which is part of the EU, and then "the Caribbean and Latin America."
In 3 you commented about US protections on government interference in free speech. In 2, however, markoman pointed out that US companies expect to be able to control employee speech which is "laughably illegal" German.
The threat of being fired, while not the same as being jailed, still has a chilling effect on free speech. The more so in a place like the US where the socialized "safety net" is rather weaker than in Germany.
5. "with whatever speech they have assigned to you" .. I believe the prohibitions on Nazi symbols in Germany was partially based on restrictions to free speech imposed by the Allied powers, including the US.
Note that some speech - I'm thinking of speech which is the US is classified as obscene - is more free in Germany than in the US.
7. I don't understand your transition from terror attacks to German discrimination against Turks. Yes, it's there. So what? How does that indicate something which sets the US apart, given the long history of 'disdain' in the US towards blacks, Native Americans, and Hispanics - discrimination which exists to this day, though no longer enshrined in the legal code.
You write most of Western Europe is "quite homogenous in its race and ideas"?
Could you define "race"? Does it mean something other than "has white skin"? Eg, the traditional US viewpoint was that southern Italians were a different race than northern Italians, the English were convinced of the superiority of the Anglo-Saxon race, and of course there's also the Teutonic race, as in "The realm of France, it is well known, was divided betwixt the Norman and Teutonic race" from Ivanhoe.
I don't understand why you think that Western Europe is more homogeneous in its ideas than the US. That is, don't Western European also think Americans are also homogeneous? Could you explain how you came to this conclusion?
Going back to your earlier comment concerning "tyranny of socialized govt", hasn't the US been a socialized government since the New Deal? I can easily find many people making that claim, and I think they are right. (I don't think that's a bad thing either.) Or are you saying that that the US is( socialized, but it isn't* tyrannical about its socialized government, while other European countries are?
There's a long tradition of people placing absurd requirements on Americans who criticize American culture.
During the Vietnam War, anti-war protesters who (correctly, with the retrospective understanding of history) criticized the US involvement in SE Asia, and were told "America, love it or leave it."
Now we have someone who did leave, and so the demand gets even more absurd. "American, love it or leave it and renounce citizenship."
Suppose she did spend the time and ~$3,000 to renounce US citizenship.
Would it really change your mind?
What I've seen in the forums which discuss renunciation is that there become new attacks, with the most common that it was done to cheat on paying taxes.
I say it's absurd because it's hard to move away from the country where one was born and grew up. She's almost certainly got more skin in the game than you do. Since you don't seem to have any skin in the game, and you thinking having skin is important, why should we listen to you?
While that might be a worthwhile goal as well, I do not get the need for both sides to cram it into so many unrelated pieces.
I understand that people think about that as a technical problem (people hurt through weapons, therefore decrease availability - problem solved) however this is not solving the problem at all:
You wouldn't want a society of violent people who just never got the chance to hurt others either.
The technicality of decreasing the availability of weapons (which, as said, might as well be valid) feels so out of place in the article since the rest of it is actually about culture.
It appears to me that the author points at a cultural problm and then interrupts everything to feature this US gun thing.