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Comment by eggnet | Hacker News Reader

By which country's standards is North Korea free?

Edit: Other than North Korea.

North Korea's.

I had this argument with someone the other day, that because non-western countries aren't western doesn't mean their societies aren't free/advanced. I don't know how someone can argue that getting tortured or killed for your beliefs, or being treated as basically a possession, or any of these things is "free, just not in a western morals way".

That's an argument of no human rights.. whatever anyone does is now "free".

What about the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights? Countries have repeatedly pledged to uphold it.

Just a couple of recent examples:

In 2000, the Millennium Declaration says "We resolve therefore: To respect fully and uphold the Universal Declaration of Human Rights." It was unanimously adopted by the UN.

NK wasn't there.. but they were at the World Summit a few years later... where a similar statement was again adopted unanimously:

We reaffirm the solemn commitment of our States to fulfil their obligations to promote universal respect for and the observance and protection of all human rights and fundamental freedoms for all in accordance with the Charter, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and other instruments relating to human rights and international law. The universal nature of these rights and freedoms is beyond question.

There is a definition of freedom that everyone, including NK, agrees with.. It's defined in the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Yes, agreed. I was arguing with someone on whether homosexual couples should be allowed to adopt, and one of their arguments was "no, because many countries in Asia and Africa don't let them either". My response was "if you're bringing up those countries as examples to follow, you need to reevaluate your position".

Many people think of “freedom” in collectivist terms. North Korea isn’t controlled by any foreign power, so they have that form of freedom.

You (and I) probably don’t think too much of that compared with the sort of freedom that lets you criticize the government without your entire family being sent to a camp, but not everybody thinks that way.

I would argue that they're pretty much controlled by one foreign power, China, given that they're heavily dependent on imports from China because of the sanctions.

So if they enter into treaties that lead to the lifting of sanctions, they could actually gain freedom (from China) by giving up other freedoms (to stockpile nukes etc.).

They might argue freedom in the context of a global imperialist hegemony of the US.

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