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Comment by ajross | Hacker News Reader

> I cannot recall ever, even once, seeing someone's race, sex, or orientation being mocked or even mentioned.

If all you're doing is googling for mature, well-curated answers, then you're not seeing this. Go post a "dumb question" and see how you're treated.

And the contention isn't that people are being deliberately mocked, it's that they don't feel welcome, which is a different thing.

So... how might a woman (or whoever) not feel welcome? Maybe because the forum she's on sees people regularly doing stuff like saying discrimination is "not even possible", or mocking those talking about it for "pointless virtue signaling"? I mean, seriously: go back and read the very post you just typed: does that seem "welcoming" to you?

It's not.

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A “dumb question” is mocked because it’s dumb. No one knows who you are online, for example nothing about my username gives away my sex, race, religion or sexual orientation.

If some with a pseudonym like mine was mocked for asking a dumb question, their minority status would have nothing to do with it.

The manner in which it's mocked may disproportionately impact some groups. If (for example) minorities have higher levels of imposter syndrome, that sort of "you're an idiot" mockery might knock disproportionate numbers of minorities out of the field early on.

I think you are right that minority status rarely has to do with the mocking, but I also think this might be beside the point. I think really the concern is that people who might already feel like outsiders are easily discouraged and made to feel even more like an outsider. And as it turns out, it isn't even hard to identify as an outsider on stackoverflow, even if you are a great coder! I just checked out the stack overflow public survey for 2018 [https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018] - 92% of users are male, and 74.2% is white or European decent. Seems significantly homogeneous.

Homogeneous if and only if you consider "white or European" to be a clear cultural classifier. Personally, I think that there are massive cultural differences between the US, Canada, UK, Australia, and every country in Europe.

As an Australian, I'm a global minority and it might shock you but don't identify with many US cultural groups who are the overwhelming majority online.

Your point is what? Who cares if women or minorities feel unwelcome, they haven't walked a mile in your aussie shoes? Dude...

The one thing I appreciate about SO is that its users aren't afraid to call out dumb questions for what they are. Seriously, the majority of new questions _are_ dumb, or at least misunderstand the point of SO being a canonical source for generalized questions relating to CS/programming.

Consider this recent question: "Should I start edx cs50 course before any other JavaScript course, or in the middle, or after?"

This person _should_ get downvoted and told that this is not an appropriate question. Hopefully they come around after a while and learn what kinds of questions are helpful for the _community_ at large. Does it suck that they feel unwelcome? Yes. But that doesn't mean users should be forced to "be nice" just because of it.

    > the point of SO being a canonical source for generalized questions relating to CS/programming.

NO.

The point of SO is NOT to be a "canonical source for generalized questions [and answers] relating to CS/Programming".

In fact, if you ask a "generalized question" it will be smacked down as "too broad". If you ask a CS question, it will be downvoted as off-topic.

SO is a place to ask certain kinds of very specific and answerable questions. Anything outside of that narrow band (hell, even most stuff that's perfect appropriate) gets smugly dismissed by petty assholes.

> Anything outside of that narrow band (hell, even most stuff that's perfect appropriate) gets smugly dismissed by petty assholes.

The petty assholes who spend hours of their time tediously cultivating one of the world's most useful resources? Those petty assholes?

Honestly reading that I'm picturing Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons as a StackOverflow moderator and the personality type slots in so perfectly. Yes, those petty assholes.

I don't think what I said came across correctly. Of course overly broad questions will get downvoted. What I meant was, "questions that will likely benefit another person in the community". I.e. there is a sweet spot in terms of specificity. Asking for help about a very specific problem with a homework assignment or asking for advice about what class to take next are too specific and more than likely won't benefit anyone else.

Regarding your point about CS, I meant something like "within the broad range of questions related to practical computer science, specifically programming." Yes, I know there's another Exchange site for more theoretical Computer Science topics, where some questions might be more appropriate...

There are far, far more constructive ways to educate the asker of such a question than to outright tell them they're stupid. Especially because, while such a question might not be the most constructive, it being there doesn't hurt anyone at all.

It doesn't cost anything to be nice and to try and make the community feel more welcoming.

I wasn't talking about mean or hurtful language. I was talking about telling someone that their question isn't a good fit for SO. The consequence of that may be a feeling of being "excluded". So now everyone has to add a smiley face at the end of their comments when they say, "You didn't add any sample code. I don't know what you're asking help about" or "I can't understand your question, you should rephrase it"?

No, and I believe you're taking things way too far. And we've all seen pretty mean SO rejection messages. It doesn't take much to be polite in doing so. If you're going to come back with, "What if I'm polite and they still think I'm mean," well, then I don't know what to tell you. I do know that the answer is not to add actual hostility to the site just because you feel that a few people might take expectations of politeness too far.

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