Comment by ProfessorLayton | Hacker News Reader

Comment by ProfessorLayton | Hacker News Reader

ProfessorLayton

As someone that grew up poor with blue collar parents, and who's extended family is mostly in the trades business, I figure I'd chime in some of their perspectives:

- I would have disappointed them if I did not earn a 4-year degree. I'm one of the first, and very few people in my family with a degree.

- As others have stated, trades are very hard on the body, and things get dicy once it is going downhill. The pay is alright, but it cost a lot of knees, shoulders, and backs.

- The only way for my dad to continue in the trades business at his age was to start his own company and hire people himself. Not everyone is able to do this, and I continue to help a lot to build his online presence and non-labor side of the business. Hiring good people is insanely hard like the article states, and is actually capping growth.

- I'm currently way more successful working in tech than I could have ever been in the trades business, and to my family, this was the expected result. Their stance is that they worked way too hard to allow me to get an education for me to end up in the same place they did.

I'd like to add that I'm not discouraging anyone from skilled trades, nor do I think they're inferior to white collar jobs. I'm just pointing out different perspectives, and that it is much more nuanced than what is in this article.

I have a similar up bringing, but I didn't finish college. I learned coding from a young age and learned "proper software engineering" on the job. I worked with many recent college grads at a top tech company and watched them learn the ropes on the job as well (with the distinct advantage of having stronger foundations than I started with).

To me, I've always thought software engineering is better suited as a trade anyways. Save university for researchers. Software engineers could have a program like IBEW and flourish.

IBEW's program is 5 years of paid apprenticeship (6 months class room, 6 months job site, repeat). Back when I looked at it (10+ years ago) they started at $15/hr and got about $1 raise a year until they hit journeyman. At that point they jump up over $100k. I've always believed this system would work perfectly for software.

... software engineering is better suited as a trade anyways. ... Software engineers could have a program like IBEW and flourish.

With a union, yes. Building web sites and much of IT are trade school skills.

>IBEW's program is 5 years of paid apprenticeship (6 months class room, 6 months job site, repeat). Back when I looked at it (10+ years ago) they started at $15/hr and got about $1 raise a year until they hit journeyman. At that point they jump up over $100k. I've always believed this system would work perfectly for software.

that's how I became a sysadmin. actually, I think that's pretty common. If you are willing to do computer gigs and show some enthusiasm, there are a lot of $15/hr gigs about, I think.

I think I started closer to $4/hr (in 1994-1995 or so) fixing computers for a shop run out of a suburban living room. It took me more than 5 years to get to $100K, but in '94 I had 3 or 4 more years of highschool to go, so five years of full time work isn't too far off.

The secret, of course, is that my dad worked in IT, and this is true of most of my colleagues who don't have an education. Of course, I think that's also pretty common in the trades... and for that matter, my dad was midway through his IT career when he got his degree, so that doesn't really demolish the idea that you can do it without a degree... it's just like everything else, knowing people helps a lot, and having a good mentor helps a lot, and a parent makes a hell of a mentor, if they are knowledgable about the path you are taking.

Would a structured program be better? For some people, sure. This way worked well for me.

I've had a few jobs where I was called a programer or a 'toolmaker' or a 'production engineer' - but I'm really a sysadmin, and really still have some ways to go to make 'software engineer' - but I get paid better than an electrician, and I don't have to wake up early.

This is almost exactly my background as well. I have massive respect for tradespeople and family members in that space. That being said these type of articles leave a lot to be desired in terms of expressing the whole picture and why lots of blue collar families push for thier children not to go into their trade/field. Imho

Do people do anything to prevent, or delay, the knees, shoulder, or back issues?

Yes, but prolonged wear and tear will eventually rear some issues. There's not much you can do if you need to be on a ladder for 6 hours a day, for example.

I'd guess some would be preventable with proper "maintenance" (having good posture, stretches, taking care of your limits, good nutrition, etc)

But even sports figures have issues and retire early, so I don't think that is so clear cut and that doing things the right way solves everything

Yeah, my dad was a carpenter, and I grew up working on job sites with him during the summers. His strategy was to never bend over if he could help it. Simple things like setting things down on something waist height instead of on the floor whenever possible.

I've started this exact process a couple days ago while moving all my life to the bay this past week; I don't feel nearly as worn out at the end of the day because of it.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com