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Comment by curun1r | Hacker News Reader

It's probably more of a "know your audience" decision. Anyone who's used an ML-derived language will understand the motivation for pattern matching. But a large percentage of JS developers don't really have much background in non-mainstream languages or programming language theory, so they chose an example that's likely to resonate more with that group.

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> But a large percentage of JS developers don't really have much background in non-mainstream languages or programming language theory

Not to side-track the issue, but I keep hearing this. I'm wondering if this is true, and if so, how such a statement is verified. I'm currently a full-time JS dev, but have written my own programming languages, have professionally written in C, C++, C#, F#, Ruby, and others, and have dabbled in many other languages (and would love to professionally work in Clojure). [EDIT: Er, to the "non-mainstream" point, I've dabbled in Rust, Clojure, OCaml, Haskell, PureScript, Erlang, Elixir, and Elm. I don't know many JS devs that have done all of that, but most people I know have tinkered in odd non-mainstream languages.]

Most JS devs I know are not single-language devs. Am I just a super anomalous member of the JS community?

... Anyway, back on topic, I'm a big fan of pattern matching, so I'm all for seeing this proposal become a reality.

I think it's a stereotype from the old web when it didn't require as much technical skill as other programming fields. Most of my colleagues started in other languages and learned Node/JS on the job.

With JavaScript being the most used language in the world I highly doubt the old stereotypes still apply

Unless front-end development as a category has completely disappeared in the last few years there are certainly quite a few people who don't know how to do anything else.

Is it the most used language in the world? Seems like I keep hearing comments like that, but the rankings I've seen don't list it that way.

It's the most visibly used language. But the world runs on a ton of code that isn't the web.

At least according to Github: https://octoverse.github.com/ - it's in its own class compared to the others: 2.3m to the next most popular (1m, python)

Yeah, but there's a trivial selection effect going on with Github.

According to Stackoverflow's developer survey it is [1]. Doesn't surprise me since developing for web means JavaScript.

Curious to know what rankings you are referring to though.

[1]: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/#technology

I didn't see anything on methodology, but I'm assuming they're just surveying their users—in which case, I think it would make some sense for javascript to be overrepresented.

I'd be curious to see the methodology behind the rankings you speak of.

EDIT: saw the sibling thread.

What rankings have you been seeing? Javascript is on top of the list from what I've been seeing.

https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/#technology

Tiobe index for one. But I just searched Google and checked the top few.

The TIOBE index has always been a bit weird. If you read their note about their methodology, you'll see that it's measuring something kind of interesting, but not really what you'd call "the most used languages." For example, IIRC part of a language's TIOBE ranking is how many college courses use it.

Do you know of another more objective source, though?

Other folks are citing Github and Stack Overflow, but they are just reporting on proportions used on their own sites, and I would not be at all surprised to find that both those sites are more popular with web developers than say Java or C/C++/C# or Visual Basic devs (all those languages outrank javascript on Tiobe).

That seems pretty likely to be true of Github. But for Stack Overflow, I would be really surprised. Stack Overflow has had a huge and thriving C# community from the start, and it's got so much page rank that questions about any language, "web" or not, are likely to lead there. The only languages that seem likely to be underrepresented are ones that are mainly used by people who learned them long ago and aren't gaining any more users (like MUMPS or something), since those people are unlikely to have questions.

Any language that is the most used is going to be used by mostly below-average programmers. I have yet to see a single domain where quality can be measured by popularity.

I think you're a super anomalous member of any programming language's community. I doubt even one programmer in a thousand has written F# professionally (not being hipster here — I haven't done it myself).

a LOT of function programmers end up doing a lot of javascript work.

I don't think he is odd in any way.

Sure, a lot of functional programmers probably do end up doing javascript work. But that's still a large subset of a very small fraction of programmers in general, and they're definitely still vastly outnumbered by the folks who are barely more than script kiddies.

Who are you calling a hipster....

I think that the large percentage of JS developers the GP is talking about is people for whom JS is probably their first or second programming language (and then the first is something like python, ruby or php).

It's certainly been my experience that there are a lot of JS developers who aren't like you, though I have met a few who are. But JS has traditionally been one of the most accessible languages. Before transpilers became common, view source allowed non-programmers to learn javascript by example. And because of it's use in the front-end/web, you saw a lot graphic designers and other non-programmers learn it to be able to put something online. Javascript also goes out of its way to be friendlier. While other languages complain when you try to add two different width integers, Javascript will happily add a number and a string together. It's something that drives those of us with a static typing background nuts, but makes the language more approachable overall.

It's certainly a tired narrative that a lot of the churn in the front-end javascript framework world comes from developers who aren't aware of well-recognized patterns and techniques from other languages. But stereotypes and tired critiques almost always have some basis in reality and it does seem like the JavaScript world is rediscovering a few lessons the hard way rather than learning from the experience of other language communities.

> Javascript also goes out of its way to be friendlier. While other languages complain when you try to add two different width integers, Javascript will happily add a number and a string together. It's something that drives those of us with a static typing background nuts, but makes the language more approachable overall.

We have differing definitions of friendly. Since I understand types and operator overloading, I know that 1 and "1" are different. I also know that the operator + does traditional math addition and concats Strings. If I didn't, it would probably drive me bonkers that "1" + 1 is "11" in JS instead of 2 or even "2". Having knowledge about types and overloading automatically tells me that String + Int = String.

I'm not saying that JS is bad since it lacks static typing. I'd argue that lack of static typing makes a language tougher to learn rather than more approachable. The barrier of entry is lower, but makes comprehension tougher.

> I'd argue that lack of static typing makes a language tougher to learn rather than more approachable

I think it's a bit of a wolf in sheep's clothing. It makes it harder to master, but less intimidating when you're first starting out.

Also, I probably shouldn't have used the term static typing, since the issues I'm talking about are more associated with weak typing rather than dynamic typing.

You are conflating two questions:

1. What percentage of JavaScript/front-end web developers are familiar with any other programming languages?

2. What percentage are familiar with a certain specific subset of other programming languages, namely functional or functional-ish languages with pattern matching as a core construct?

And you're treating an answer to (1) as an answer to (2).

I'm s full time JS dev too. People keep saying that JS sucks or whatever, but [Rust, Clojure, OCaml, Haskell, PureScript, Erlang, Elixir, Elm, Scala, Nim] jobs are just so rare that picking one and going deep is basically like hoping to win a lottery.

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