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Comment by peterburkimsher | Hacker News Reader

"inhumane quasi-slavery visa situation that we do to our friends who happen to be born somewhere else" - thank you so much for this rant.

I've spent the last 3 years in Taiwan sitting tight and waiting until I have enough work experience to qualify for the Skilled Migrant Category visa for New Zealand (Canada and Australia are also options, with similar requirements). Now I have those 3 years, I'm trying to get a job at one of the 75 tech companies on the Accredited Employers list who can actually give me a visa. Then, if all goes well, I can get be a Permanent Resident after 2 years. And only then can I think about getting married, learning to drive, settling down. It's been a long road to get to where I am now, aged 28, and I really hope some company will notice my plight and be willing to take me through the last step of finding a country to call home.

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Is there a reason you need to be sponsored by a company?

Australia has a skilled independent points-based visa which gives you the permanent right to live and work. I've actually just been granted mine about a week ago.

I take it that New Zealand doesn't have an equivalent?

I've written up a little log of what I had to do, which you might find helpful: https://recklessclicking.com/notes/australian-immigration.ht...

Your log is very helpful, thank you! I've done a lot of research and made a lot of life choices to plan this. MEng in Electronic Systems Engineering from a UK university satisfies the education requirement from a Washington Accord country. 3 years continuous relevant work experience was the hardest because I like travelling and moving around, but I stayed here long enough I have that now. Maybe I don't have enough money to do the skilled independent visa, but if I could borrow the capital, I think I have the points.

Congratulations on your what you have achieved so far and good luck in the future! Not a lot of people know the amount of research, effort, discipline, money, sacrifice and luck go into immigration.

Hopefully your points are not just over the threshold - if they are, beware of losing your "youth points" and going below the minimum accepted points when you turn 32 or 35 (or whatever the limit is for the countries you're targeting). The years go by so fast!

These countries seem so easy compared to US where it can take 20+ years for a residency if you're from India, and you need to live on annual visa renewals until that time

You don't have a country to call home?

"Home" is a place I can settle, start a family, go back to and live in.

I grew up near Geneva. My parents bought a house in France because it was cheaper. My dad crossed the border every day to work at CERN and take me to international school.

I can't be Swiss, because my parents weren't resident. I can't be French, because I wasn't born there. The nearest French hospital is 2 hours away through the mountains and CERN paid for Swiss health insurance. I'm British by descent because my parents are from there. Future children born outside the UK cannot be British from me, because I wasn't born in the UK. If I stayed in Geneva and met a wife there in the same situation (very common with UN kids), and kept living with my parents, future children would be stateless.

My girlfriend is Taiwanese. If she and I had children, they would be Taiwanese from her, and would have to go to the military and learn how to kill foreigners. There's a conflict of interest - I don't want children to kill me. She had a great time in Australia on Working Holiday and wanted to go to New Zealand too, but couldn't get one of the 600 visas even though we stayed up all night and applied as soon as applications opened at 6 am.

For her to move to the UK requires her to meet income requirements of £18,600 per year, which she doesn't earn with her CAD job, and it would take 5 years. New Zealand offers PR after 2 years, and New Zealand PR is enough for children to get citizenship. (some countries e.g. Canada give citizenship at birth to everyone, but then it's possible for parents to lose their visa and be separated from kids - I want PR before I marry).

God fucking damnit. With that amount of knowledge and detail, I hope you end when you are comfortable to be, and accepted as well.

This situations seem so fucking ridicolous to me. Any country would be fortunate to have someone like you.

“This amount of knowledge” appears to be a canonical example of “just enough knowledge to be dangerous”. It appears that he’s spent years arranging his life under a false understanding of the relevant laws that could have been cleared up by a question on immihelp, or ten minutes with a UK immigration lawyer.

Sorry I don't buy this. You make this sound as if you were stateless which of course is not the case or you wouldn't be able to be in Taiwan either unless you sneaked into there and are in fact working illegally.

I'm not stateless. I have a work visa. The article explains the pressure of living on a work visa (shut up, get in line, or lose your job, visa, and country). Taiwan is not "home" because I can't start a family here. Even if I didn't care about children's military service, I can't get a Taiwanese passport without renouncing my previous citizenship and going to military service myself. Taiwanese PR doesn't give children nationality, and I would lose the PR if I leave for more than 2 years.

As a British citizen, you can already have permanent residence there. Bringing a partner over has no income requirements, either proof of being together >2 years or marriage (anywhere, marriage is usually valid across countries) [1], I’ve seen hundreds of people bring their partners over to Europe. Your children will be born in the UK and have full citizenship.

[1] https://www.gov.uk/uk-family-visa/partner-spouse

He's not stateless, he's British.

Sucks for your situation. One question though (I'm sure you've heard before)...

> For her to move to the UK requires her to meet income requirements of £18,600 per year

What about if you got married?

Marriage doesn't help! "Partnership" is recognised by immigration, and that requires living together, sharing the same address and bank account for a year.

This is because of a cultural shift in the meaning of marriage. It used to be one man and one woman, for life. Divorce, polygamy, homosexuality, and marriages of convenience changed that definition. I'm not trying to get distracted about whether those groups of people should be allowed to marry - that's a different political debate. The outcome is that marriage doesn't matter for immigration any more.

As soon as I get married, I'm going to have sex! But that might bring babies. If those kids can't have nationality, or risk their parents being separated by visa issues, I want to delay having those kids. So I want to get PR before getting married.

Ok, it sounds like you've thought things through and best of luck with it.

I’m not sure why you threw in a dig at homosexuals in your little immigration rant. That’s probably why you’re getting downvotes here. Plus it erases a lot of goodwill you might be building up.

Also btw, there is no modern state that recognizes polygamy, especially for immigration purposes!

Ps: marriages of convenience are ... classic marriages. That is what marriage used to be. A business or political arrangement. For convenience.

> As soon as I get married ... might bring babies

Contraception.

> As soon as I get married, I'm going to have sex!

Wait, you didn't yet ?

(Not the OP) Is that so surprising? My wife and I waited until marriage.

It's not really common amongst europeans under 50.

I'm a European under 50 :) I agree it's not common, but not unheard of.

Prompted by faith ?

You're a British citizen, you can move to any country in the EU. If you marry your girlfriend, she can move with you, and other countries in the EU will not require her to show income to move with you. You could be there in a few months, without waiting for companies to notice you. Source: am British citizen by descent, have lived in France. Edit: and then to move to Britain from an EU country she doesn't need to show an income at all https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/family-resid...

You can always use the Surinder Singh route to bypass the income requirements of moving your spouse to the UK. It’s a pain and the Home Office will fight you tooth and nail but it’s legal.

I might have this wrong, but last I checked IIRC the deal is your non-EU spouse has a right to live with you (assuming you're an EU national) in any EU country other than your own. She would also have a work permit, should she choose to work. In your own country the local immigration rules apply to your non-EU spouse.

So for a UK citizen with a Taiwanese wife it would be extremely simple (until Brexit of course) to move with her, the "third-country national," to France or Austria or wherever. Whether it's also easy to move to the UK with her, I have no idea... but it's definitely not automatically approved in all EU countries.

As another commenter mentioned, it is known as the Surinder Singh application - you have to show that you are genuine residents of the other EU country, and then your home country has to treat you as they would any other couple with the right to live in the EU - https://www.gov.uk/family-permit/surinder-singh

UK citizens should find it fairly easy to immigrate to Australia.

Oh, and just to address this concern:

> future children would be stateless.

If you had children who were stateless by birth, they would become eligible for British citizenship. Also, if you live in the UK for three consecutive years, then any children born after that period will be able to inherit British citizenship from you.

Children born overseas (e.g. France, Taiwan) can't be British. Children born in the UK from me can be British, I think.

I was in the UK for university and a Christian volunteer group, over a period of 5 years. I emailed the Home Office to ask to "upgrade" my citizenship, but they said there's no way to do that. So I'm not sure where you got that 3 year limit from. (But maybe this changed since 2012 when I was last there).

I got this information from my research in the 90s, and it’s definitely valid today. Your own citizenship does not change, but your children will be eligible to register as a British citizen through form MN1 Section 3(2)

> To qualify under this section, the parent who is British by descent must have been born to a parent who was a British citizen otherwise than by descent (or if that person died, then they would have been a British citizen otherwise than by descent but for their death). The British citizen by descent parent must have lived in the UK (or, if the child was born on or after 21 May 2002, in a British overseas territory) for a continuous period of 3 years at any time before the child’s birth. During that period they should not have absences exceeding 270 days. The application must be made whilst the child is under 18 years of age. The 3 year residence requirement for the parent does not need to be met if the child is stateless.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

What if two such parents had a child born in France? The child would be stateless, except that Britain allows stateless children born to British citizens to gain citizenship and France allows stateless children born in the country to gain citizenship. Which one would the children actually get?

I think France, because to show statelessness to the UK you need documentation from the country of birth saying the child is not eligible for citizenship there. But if France required similar documentation from the parent’s country, then I think it would be whichever you applied to First?

AFAIK if you're a British citizen you're entitled to live in Ireland, and any children born in Ireland will have Irish citizenship

And that's going to be an increasingly valuable passport in the coming years, I would think.

Sorry but I don’t understand the problem: you have British citizenship. You can reside and work anywhere in the EU. That puts you in a fairly enviable position. If you marry your wife is entitled to permanent residency (I think it’s called permanent leave to remain), which is a lot easier to get than say any US equivalent. British permanent residency is (for now) EU residency.

It’s also not quite true that your children would be stateless. This vastly depends in where they’re born. Also there are provisions for this in UK law. Lastly grandchildren of UK born citizens (which it sounds like they would be) are entitled to an ancestry visa. This gives 4 years to live and work in the UK without restriction. If they’re still there after 4 years they then get permanent residency and are entitled to apply for citizenship a year after that.

EDIT: so it’s been some years since I lived in the UK and the rules have gotten much harsher on spouse visas, namely there is an income requirement for the Briton (£18,600pa) and the spouse visa is for 30 months renewable for another 30 months so now it takes 5 years to get ILR (indefinite leave to remain). It used to be 2.

Still, it’s an option. As are other EU countries. Ireland, Sweden and even the Netherlands look like decent options. Maybe Austria too.

Marriage does entitle his wife to PR. It entitles his wife to FLR which needs to be renewed after 2.5 years before she will be granted indefinitely leave to remain (UK green card).

If you lose your job before the renewal she won’t get the visa.

You are better off moving to Canada. You will both get PR straight away and citizenship in 3 years.

If you come into Canada using the Express Entry immigrantiom system then you land as a PR and so does your wife. No qualification period.

Also Canada recognises commonlaw marriage.

I made the switch from H1B's indentured servitude to being a permanent resident of Canada through the Express Entry system. It changed my life for good. US corporates likes H1B so much that they are lobbying to keep the shackles as it is.

Here is how I did it -> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15452647

Yes, Canada's Express Entry is one of my top-two preferences. The problem is if I then leave for more than 2 years, I lose PR. So it's not really "Permanent". I'd have to stay for 4 years and become a citizen. But that's ok - I enjoyed my Working Holiday there, and I could see myself being there for 4 years. My girlfriend said she prefers NZ though (and NZ has tougher requirements) so I'm sticking with that for now. If anything happens to our relationship though, and we decide it's better to be apart, then I'll be on the next plane to Canada.

>The problem is if I then leave for more than 2 years, I lose PR

That's not correct. You need to be present in Canada for 2 years out of every 5. NZ is more flexible but has a 2 year qualifying period to get PR.

It's also 3 years to qualify for citizenship.

US Greencards are the worst. Leave the country for a couple of months and it can be revoked.

> If she and I had children, they would be Taiwanese from her, and would have to go to the military and learn how to kill foreigners. There's a conflict of interest - I don't want children to kill me.

Taiwan isn't the only country you mentioned that has compulsory military service. Your children would "kill you" (wtf?) if they grew up in Switzerland as well.

Yes, that's correct. That's one major reason I'm not planning to move to Switzerland, Austria, Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, or Israel. The choice of other countries (EU, Canada, Australia, NZ) is more flexible, and mostly emotional based on my experience of working holiday/summer jobs in those places.

> If she and I had children, they would be Taiwanese from her, and would have to go to the military and learn how to kill foreigners.

Compulsory military service had been phasing out for years, if not fully by this year, almost certainly by the time your children would be born. Moreover, only men are conscripted, so it's a ~50% chance. Finally, there are various alternate services they could qualify for, in lieu of military service. So I'm not sure what your GF's been telling you?!

What's wrong with Taiwan? Beautiful country, lovely people.

>> and I really hope some company will notice my plight

Do you have a website? Is your story documented anywhere? It's really powerful.

It is?

He’s spent the last three years working in tech in a first-world country while waiting for a chance to work in tech in another first-world country, where he’ll have to not-get-deported for two whole years before he can really settle down.

Maybe I’ve grown cold-hearted over the years, but “emigrating to a desirable nation for a desirable job takes several years, during which I’m stuck in another developed, desirable nation” isn’t wringing out any tears on my end.

It took about that long for my family to come over in the 80s, and they were fleeing religious persecution in a shit-hole.

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