Ideas for a non-web software startup? | Hacker News Reader

Ideas for a non-web software startup?

37 pointshashbucket33 comments

I'm pretty depressed about the current Silicon Valley startup scene. First, it seems that everyone is chasing after the finite pool of ad money, i.e. the game is (at least somewhat) zero-sum. Plus, although AdBlock is right now limited to the tech circles, it will eventually spread to everybody. Second, none of the startups have interesting tech. For example, reddit or digg are just marketing + some pretty interface. There only place where powerful algorithms are employed seems to be at Google. What market should someone who is interested in working with algorithms enter? Is there a bright future in bio-informatics? I want to write software that will actually make a difference, not be the next twitter or facebook clone. Those are fun to play with, sure, but I highly doubt that it changed anyone's life the way Google did or genetic testing will.

View on HN

Just a few comments about bioinformatics:

- most of the work to be done is the same boring stuff you do at a startup: maintain the server farm, deal with flaky libraries, tune the database. The interesting algorithm work is done by PhDs... at universities.

- the bullshit factor at bioinformatics companies is as high or higher than the trivial startups you mention. You are ultimately working on tools that people don't really know how to use and trying to sell them to people that probably don't need them. The only "real" customers are pharma companies or larger biotech firms. This makes the environment much like working for an enterprise software vendor which everyone knows isn't very fun.

- the bioinformatics companies are either in glamorous places like New Jersey, Boston suburbs or... Silicon Valley. So, you're unlikely to be able to escape from the SV scene anyway.

- at a startup these days, you at least can use slightly less painful tools like ruby and python. In bioinformatics, you are stuck with ancient Perl/CGI scripts or some VB/Java time bomb.

I spent 2 years in bioinformatics and will be forever grateful that I was given the opportunity to escape and work on silly, pointless consumer entertainment software instead.

To dovetail on the complaints about bioinformatics; most of the government grants are given to PIs, or Principal Investigators, who are a notoriously clannish bunch and each one has free license to operate as they want. IT can be lower on the priority list for them than say, the bio-stats geeks who work exclusively in Excel, SAS, SPSS, etc.

So, you're either working for the 'enterprise software vendor' (ie big pharma) or you obey the whim of the PI, which is like client work for people who, again, don't really want to listen to you anyway. 'Just get it to work' is the prevailing attitude.

The only notable exception would be if you were to get into bioinformatics outside of the USA. Try to find some work with either EU orgs (entirely govt sponsored research), such as the World Health Organization in Geneva, or take a look at what orgs are doing with public health research in developing countries. If you find a better ways to assist with AIDS research in Africa, you would be doing the world a bigger favor than currying favor to the pointy-headed in the US.

In short, look to the frontiers of modern society. They probably have needs that seem elementary to us, but are real and need solving, now.

menloparkbum, if you are interested in solving the problems you mentioned, then please get in touch (my email is my profile page). One of the aspects of my start-up is to solve the problems you have mentioned.

Hashbucket, if you're interested in applying powerful algorithms to semantic searching within science, including bioinformatics, then get in touch.

"In bioinformatics, you are stuck with ancient Perl/CGI scripts or some VB/Java time bomb."

Out of curiosity, why is that?

I've found Dr. Richard Hamming's talk to scientists, "You and Your Research," to have useful advice on the subject. http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html

In particular, he talks about keeping track of a set of important problems worth solving. Then, whenever you find an interesting new technique, compare it against your library of problems, and see if there's a good fit. I expect the reverse is also similarly useful: keep a good library of techniques on hand, and look for one that's applicable whenever you run across an interesting problem.

This type of approach isn't necessary for building twitter or facebook clones, but it may well be ideal for looking for new ways to apply machine learning and other types of advanced algorithms, because it's primarily applicable in cases where there's an actual problem to solve.

Hi there. If you have a good idea, then do it - there are LOADS of companies that make good money out there. You may not have heard of them, but they pay the bills for their founders and a whole lot more. Here's an interesting, if possibly dated, article about Ultraedit, a PHP Editor and how the history about how the founder quit his job. From what I understand he makes very good money from this:

http://www.ultraedit.com/company/IDM_full_story.html

"marketing + some pretty interface"

Best description yet of "Web 2.0"!

I feel much the same way, which is why I've been learning Eclipse RCP this year. Not everything has to be a killer website (although RCP apps can be made into web apps with RAP).

There are still many applications that don't quite fit into the "web 2.0" mold. For example, think of applications that deal with data users want to keep private, or share only on their own terms, not through a trusted third party, however benevolent they claim to be.

Instead of trying to convince users they need to trust their data to your web app, bring the application to them!

So, on a daily basis, what piece of software really pisses you off? What task can you just not find the right solution for? What do you hear your friends complaining about and think, yeah, I feel ya?

Build that solution. Sell that solution. You'll have done two things: solved your problem, and solved someone else's. If you make a few bucks along the way, so be it!

To point out one startup using cool math: Powerset.

Google may use cool math, but be careful calling it the "only" at anything. There are tons of companies you probably haven't heard of doing awesome things. Everyone knows about Google, though, so it's easy to point to it as an "only".

I hope that made sense.

Well, again, look for everyday pains. If there is something on some of your customers' minds when they wake up, find that something and solve that for them, so they have one less thing to worry about. Really that's what even Google says AND does, focus on the customer and everything else will follow.

Having said all that, use your skill as a tool! Let's take Octopart as an example - the founders' pain was they couldn't find their parts easily online. So, they put their skills (algorithms [well, technically, they were physicists, but any good physicist is a good mathematician]) to work - they built a great search that Google doesn't cater to.

Lessons: 1) They identified pain - no search for parts 2) They used their skillset - math (algorithms) 3) They are making the world a better place* (as in much more of an impact* than those playthings you mentioned). *-very very relative

As about bio-informatics, who knows? Heck, no one really knows about any industry's future. If someone claims to know, he/she is trying to sell something - may it be an idea, prophecy, or plain bull-shiitake mushrooms :) Point is that if you have really identified your customers' pain, then they will happily send their wheel barrows full of love AND money towards your solution.

It's been brought up a couple times here that email software sucks for people who get a large volume of mail. This is the problem Xobni started with before they moved in a different direction. I think a lot could be gained by applying machine learning to this problem. This is the sort of product people would pay for if it was good. Life changing? If you have 20000 unread messages in your inbox, it just might be.

Not that there's anything wrong with bioinformatics.

There are some pretty amazing algorithms at work every day in the financial markets. If you're interested in that, I can personally recommend Palantir Technologies as a great place to thrive doing just that. They're applying real computer science in problem spaces that desperately need it.

http://www.palantirtech.com/

My profile has contact info if you'd like an intro.

You need to recheck your assumptions. There is no finite pool of ad money. Ad money is infinite as long as people are buying products and services online and offline. Reddit & Digg are algorithms none the less. Writing powerful algorithms need MARKETS willing to pay for your time and provide returns to your investors. Anyway, if you want to change people's life; its very easy. Think about Darfur and software that can help. Think about an algorithm that can use GoogleMaps, RFID, GPS, SocialGraph, CommodityPrices, UNICEF api. I am sure such a project will be challenging and help with your depression. Goodluck.

Second that AND if you really want to make a huge impact, write a "social responsible" network for the mobile phone; Android dev contest rewards well!

I'm re-reading "Moneyball" by Michael Lewis, and everything he describes about baseball scouting at that time (i.e., every team is chasing players with relatively unimportant characteristics while the guys that really contribute to victory are undervalued) feels similar to what SV considers "important" right now.

So what are you interested in? Making money or changing people's lives? I kind of don't understand what you are depressed about. You say everyone is trying to be a twitter or facebook clone and/or chasing after ad money. Isn't that a GOOD thing for you since you are trying to do something in bio-informatics?

What makes you think that "software that will actually make a difference" is non-web software? A lot of web-based fluff is being churned out these days, but that doesn't change the fact that almost everything that has made a difference lately has been web-based, too.

Counterexamples welcome.

Here's a product that I want to buy, that I don't want to build: I want a small, waterproof (or at least water-resistant) audio device that has a single speaker and three (or so) buttons. Pressing the first button plays a long audio file of hurricane and storm noises. The second button plays a long audio file of pirate battles. The third button plays a long audio file of WWII submarine combat sounds. The audio quality has to be very good. I'll pay up to $20-$25 bucks for this without thinking twice.

Why? Tubby time for the kids! Of course, I could set up something myself, but I'm too lazy.

Future iterations could include other similar devices (e.g., one with space sounds), or a "fourth button" that allowed custom sounds to be downloaded.

First - If you want to "write software that will actually make a difference", your best bet is to stop worrying about advertising markets and twitter clones and focus on exactly that - finding some problem in the world and fixing it.

Second - the advertising dollars in the valley are not zero-sum, because the potential market, while finite, is not nearly what it could be. How to do effective brand advertising or video advertising on the web are very much unsolved problems, and whoever solves them will substantially increase the size of the pie that everyone is fighting over. These aren't technical problems, but they could have technical solutions (Ooyala in the video advertising space is a good example).

I feel a bit like you, web development can be incredibly boring. However, lately there is a bright light on the horizon: social networks analysis should provide for lots of opportunities to run some interesting algorithms. You could always start with the Netflix Challenge (not sure what interests you).

Also many people seem to make shitloads of money with "ad opmtimization software", tools for people to help them optimize their spending on ads. OK, that is ads again, but I think an area where you could run wild with algorithms.

What about image analysis? Google doesn't translate images yet...

Not all these companies are doing lame things. Particularly check out 23andme and the stealth bioinformatics startup; http://snaptalent.com/ads.html

Here's the thing -- as has been pointed out here many times, investors are conservative. Once a meme catches on everybody rides that wave for a while hoping for the point where there's some consolidation and those startups get snatched up.

Doing really cool stuff is riskier. Scarier. There are no rules laid down yet for what sort of value you're generating.

That said, there are hard algorithms more places than you expect. When trying to scale something that looks simple on the surface, problems often become complex enough to be interesting.

Just an idea: try to bring programming to the masses. I see a lot of non-IT people that to solve their everyday work tasks need to write code even if they don't realize it very well. Currently the mainstream application to do it is... excel. An environment where people can write code almost without realizing it to solve specific problems can make the difference.

Watch this, hashbucket. Seriously. Take the time. I hope this gives you another angle to think about.

http://www.justin.tv/hackertv/98115/David_Heinemeier_Hansson...

programmers are always saying that they don't get to work on interesting algorithms. you know who gets to work on interesting algorithms? traffic engineers.

Forget about Silicon Valley and startups. Think of something that needs to exist. Then build it.

The first step is the only hard one.

If it's really something that needs to exist, the second step may be harder.

Maybe, maybe not. As discussed here before, many hacker types don't tend to think outside of a very limited domain of problems very well, leaving lots of potentially useful programs unwritten.

I totally agree with this. That is why I'm building my product right now and not thinking of anything yet - but the product

Shoot. Can someone give this guy an upmod... I accidentally clicked the wrong little arrow. :-(

Done

This is the question you should be asking! What needs to exist? If it happens to involve powerful algorithms, go for it. If not, go for it also. Unless of course you think you'd rather do something else...

Reply on news.ycombinator.com