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Comment by michaelmrose | Hacker News Reader

When I was growing up I remember the pride our educational system tried to instill in us and it seems so fake in retrospect. It's impossible to be proud of a nation that is only a land of opportunity for those who are white and middle class.

Its not that I'm not proud to be an American so much as I don't consider myself one I'm just a person who happens to reside here because I don't have better options.

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Middle America is chock full of towns, full of middle class white people who perceive almost zero opportunity.

We have startups, Youtube, online university materials, and enthusiast groups that will assist a motivated, energetic, optimistic person to get ahead.

The second worst thing you can do to a person is tell them not to bother learning a subject because of their skin color.

The worst thing is to add 10 points to each of their test scores, and have them find out.

We've all had people [in grade school] make fun of us for learning computing or frankly being too good at anything. Below average people are always trying to drag us down. But once we get on the other side of a people-filter [such as college or a company] we realize the world is much more egalitarian and full of independent minded people.

[Edits added in brackets]

Even though there is racial disparity and studies show discrimination in housing, jobs, loans, etc. I wouldn't go so far as to say that only White people can get ahead.

Yes I'm Black, live in the south and think I'm doing pretty well. I have quite a few friends who would also disagree.

I don't think he meant there is no opportunity for black people, but that it's truly a "land of opportunity" only for whites (more specifically white men).

Like, I grew up in a lower-middle class family and flunked out of college due to my f-ups. I squandered a lot of opportunities through my 20s, and yet still ended up in a position where I could teach myself to become a software developer, and make good money today. I got a lot of extra chances, chances that people of color don't necessarily get.

If you look at income mobility in the US, statistically it’s not the land of opportunity for anyone who comes from a poor household. (https://hbr.org/2014/02/what-we-know-about-income-mobility-d...)

Example:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/05/25/the-s...

I don't think its true that it only affords opportunity for the white and middle class. I think you would find many Americans who fit into other categories who disagree with you. Not to say cynically that 'if you don't like it leave', but I'm curious when you say you just happen to reside here for lack of better options -- is there a country in the world you consider to be the ideal, a place more just than America? I ask for the sake of discussion, not rhetorically.

Racism in America varies greatly, depending on where you live. The following is the most objective metric I could find for racist tendencies in America:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/12/08/acros...

Looking at the map, the Pacific Northwest is one of the least racist, and the south is one of the most racist. This matches pretty well with what I would have expected. Interestingly, NY state itself ranks pretty highly in racist tendencies, which is a major part of the author's experiences.

In contrast, here's the same map of Europe:

http://theconversation.com/this-map-shows-what-white-europea...

If you put any stock in this data, the UK, Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium are all less racist than NY-state.

I don't find this IAT stuff very convincing. As a counterpoint:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-false-science-of-implicit-b...

From my experience racism is more subtle in those european countries. E.g. you only get disadvantaged in more anonymous situations, but never actively excluded or attacked in person.

I live in Switzerland and noticed that especially when looking for jobs. When I was in middle school we had to look for apprenticeships to do after we finished school. In my class 5 of 20 were foreigners, and only I found a place (after a long struggle).

It wasn't based on grades since we all had equal or better grades than native students, and neither was it based on personality since we didn't even get invited to inverviews at all...

There are people that even legally changed their surname so it doesn't sound too foreign. There is especially strong bias against people from the Balkan region.

I know the situation in the US and here in Germany, and if I had dark skin I'm really not sure which poison I'd choose.

In Germany a Westernized dark-skinned person will feel quite comfortable, but when it comes to things like competing for promotions, investments, capital, heck even flats, and etc. - they will tend to lose out a little too often. People in positions of power, while friendly, have a strong and unexamined tendency to gravitate towards their comfort zone. They're looking for a good gut feeling, for trustworthiness, for what seems like a good match - and, shocker, those feelings are most often produced by upper middle class to rich native-born German men. It's pervasive, and I don't see much talk here about the need to overcome discomfort and implicit bias, at least not among the elites. In fact, any suggestion that they should step outside of their comfort zone produces resentment, more often than not.

So, in Germany, you don't need to worry about the police, or about random aggression all that much. But you'll face a glass ceiling. And while everyday existence for the same person in America may be menacing and emotionally oppressive, America is also the country where 2 of the major tech companies have Indian CEOs, and no one blinks an eye. Germany is still very far from that, unfortunately.

That's more a Silicon Valley culture than an American one. Not to say California isn't part of America, but that same glass ceiling exists in most places in America, and it's probably lower.

Even if you don't feel pride or you don't have better options, one could still have a connection to a place or a sense of familiarity with it. Even though I will never feel as safe or comfortable as a white person, or feel that I belong as much as they do, I still have a connection to where I live merely from living here and walking through it, knowing people, etc. It's best to channel that sense to work to make that place a better place, into something you can be proud of. If I didn't have that sense, and I think if other POC didn't, we'd never get up in the morning.

A lady once said "Still I rise." I think that's the right attitude to have.

I don't mean to be condescending but have you traveled much to other countries? I spent 3 years traveling across South America and most people there just take it as obvious that darker skinned people are lesser humans. I made friends with dark skin people who casually dropped in conversation that they wish they weren't so inferior, that's how internalized the racism is.

Racism is a deeply held in/out-group identifier in humans. Western education tries to confront that and fails in many ways but really you should appreciate your education in a broader context. This isn't just an appeal to whataboutism because the US is actively trying to promote multiculturalism in a way that just doesn't happen in many other countries.

Is that what the educational system does? Maybe during the Cold War. Now, the goal of the educational isn't to install pride in America, the goal is to divide America into camps.

I think you might underestimate how much of American education inflates the idea of America as a land of opportunity for all. Even when it isn't stated explicitly, society and culture communicates that message.

>Even when it isn't stated explicitly, society and culture communicates that message.

You wouldn't guess that from looking at young-people dominated forums (e.g. reddit). The overt message constantly pounded in is that you can't get ahead by trying because everything is rigged (votes are bought, etc).

So if that's what's stated in the school system, it's definitely not sinking in.

Online forums tend to be dominated by the craziest people.

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