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Comment by notsofastbuddy | Hacker News Reader

I'm making my way through Wheel of Time right now. There probably could've been two fewer books if the descriptions of food and female characters' breasts were edited down.

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Wheel of Time the best book is around a 7/10. With some dropping as low as 3/10. There are much better examples of more immersive Fantasy out there. WoT, is a great example of a massive but mediocre series.

EDIT: The ratings are my opinion, but the downturn can be seen on goodreads ratings and is discussed in the WoT community. While not all agree there was a downturn, it being a point of contention in this series is an indicator there was one for most people.

Don't throw around scores like they're facts. Those are your scores relative to the books you've read. For many WoT is a fantastic series better than many other fantasy series.

Goodreads puts WoT book 1 at around a 4.18 and a downturn around book 8 to 3.90. Which exemplifies my point. Also my opinion, but you have to scale goodreads ratings between 3.5 and 4.5. That's about the lowest and highest I've seen, but I'd love to see goodreads discuss this.

As a completionist, the WoT series is one of only two that I've ever intentionally decided I did not want to finish. After six or seven books of weird preteen level sexual politics and behavior, and stupid plot threads because of if, I decided I'd had enough.

For reference, the other series was Twilight, and I made it all the way through book three before I gave up in disgust at that waste of time. So maybe that means WoT is roughly twice as good as Twilight in my eyes? I'm not exactly sure that's high praise. Or praise at all...

Wheel of Time is my go to example of bad fantasy literature. But there is someone disagreeing in here. Maybe it's just sunk cost bias. But anyhow it goes to show how tastes vary.

To each their own. It's often brought up in discussions as people's favorite fantasy series, or an example of a good series. I don't fault anyone for thinking the former, but I think the latter requires a bit of justification if not presented in purely subjective manner.

There is a downturn. Most people agree that Lord of Chaos was the last good book until Brandon Sanderson took over. I like to thrown in book 7 as well but RJ really did waste a whole lot of books on Ajah politics

I loved this series when I was younger. I am still fond of it, but I have read so much more that is better now.

It slows to a tedious chore, particularly around the Knitting Circle leaving Ebou Dar with the Aes Sedai. All that is pretty obvious grinding to quota from the author.

If you want some next level fantasy, check out The Malazan Book of the Fallen, by Steven Erikson. Few stories have so emotionally buffeted me. It is brutal, macabre, tragic; but also redemptive, funny, clever - dazzlingly imaginative.

I'll check it out. I'll also mention the (prose) web serial Worm, because it has many of the same qualities.

It's everybody's clothes in that series. Seemingly, the women change more often than men, but Rand has a different coat in every chapter!

It slows things down, but adds some nice visual context.

Ha ha seriously though after a few books in I started reading only the first line of each paragraph!! Way too much description of everything

You say way too much, I say the main attraction of the series.

I definitely find myself reading the same way occasionally. Usually it's when authors start listing things. Jules Verne's 20,000 leagues has a habit of listing types of fish, which would be fun if I had any idea what they looked like.

Ready Player One had a moment where for two full pages it was a literal comma separated list of pop culture references. It was one of many such lists although not normally so long.

In the sartorial vein, Philip K. Dick's hilarious descriptions of his character's zany outfits are themselves worthy of an essay. From "Ubik" (1969): "pinstriped clown-style pyjamas";"a sporty maroon wrapper, twinkle-toes turned-up shoes and a felt cap with a tassel"; "Square and puffy, like an overweight brick, wearing his usual mohair poncho, apricot-colored felt hat, argyle ski socks and carpet slippers"; "...his electric-yellow cummerbund, petal skirt, knee-hugging hose and military-style visored cap"; "He wore fuchsia pedal pushers, pink yak fur slippers, a snakeskin sleeveless blouse, and a ribbon in his waist-length dyed white hair"; "black oxfords, wool socks, knickers, cotton shirt, camel's-hair sports coat and golf cap"; "a pinstriped, blue-black, double-breasted suit, suspenders, wide floral necktie and white shirt with celluloid collar."

My favorite was this one:

> Beside it stood a beetle-like individual wearing a Continental outfit: tweed toga, loafers, crimson sash and a purple airplane-propeller beanie.

The braid twirling descriptions would have probabaly taken down another half a book. Still a great series though

I had to force myself to finish Dance With Dragons. The whole GoT just dissipated into a bunch of meandering subplots going nowhere.

Me, too. I thought it flowed a little better when read in order interleaved with the fourth book since those last two books happen at the same time, but still lots of plots that disappeared in translation to the TV show - so they could not have been that important to the end game. It was always going to be difficult to top the first three books, how many book series are consistently great?

> It was always going to be difficult to top the first three books, how many book series are consistently great?

In a similar vein, my anticipation of The Doors of Stone has gone from fervent to uneasy as the years have dragged on...

Everything in that series is over-described. The whole series could have been a trilogy.

It's a big story... I'm into the fifth book now on my latest re-read. From my recollections, it doesn't really start to sprawl until the seventh book, when everybody is just farting around in Altara and Ghealdan and Amadacia for books on end. There's quite a lurch when Sanderson took over - the final two books seemed to ruthlessly sprint to the end.

I just hope that George RR Martin doesn't keel over before he finishes his next book, and we're left with the incomprehensible hack job of the HBO series as the resolution.

Um, the first book is "They finally left the village."

The Wheel of Time was stupidly verbose and slow from book one. I really have no idea how the books became so popular. I think it was because Jordan was willing to talk to people online back when that was a thing.

If you simply focused on Mat instead of Rand's Tsundere Haremfest, you would have a good story and it would be 3 books long, tops. (I'm leaving aside Sanderson's seeming inability to write Mat's character properly.)

I rather liked Sanderson's portrayal of Mat. He was actually shown to be a trickster, not just described as one. Up until Sanderson, the only character-defining actions taken by Mat are throwing a rock at a Whitecloak and stealing a dagger. Not at all the trickster described by others, but just a common fool.

"If you simply told a different story, it would be a different length."

Books 4-6 is where it bogged down for me. I actually considered quitting reading the series after The Fires of Heaven, but I felt like it picked up again around book 7.

Yes it was sprawled out more by then, but at least the plot started to move forward again. I remember doing the math and for one of the PoV characters in book 5 (Rand maybe?) it was less than 48 hours for the entire book, much of which was him worrying internally about things mostly inconsequential to the plot.

Book 4 might be the best book in the series. Perrin's return to the Two Rivers is one of my favorite episodes. And then the two Rand chapters in the Aiel ancestral history machine in Rhuidean... those were mind-blowing the first time I read them.

I totally agree. That book was a cut above. The back-in-time view through the Ter'angreal was inspired.

I also really enjoyed the prior book, when Mat's luck runs hot leaving Tar Valon.

I stopped reading at book 7. I refuse to pick them up again. I don't want to give money or energy to an author who can't finish. I refuse to start GoT for a similar reason.

I said to a friend when I stopped that he would die before he finished the series. I didn't think it would be as soon as it was but I happened to be right anyway.

Picking Sanderson to finish it was smart. He knows how be ruthless with a subplot

Didn't he die while writing the final volume...

The final trilogy :-P

I can't say. I have a lack of confidence that he could have kept it down to a final volume. It is of course impossible to say now. But his track record indicated that he was reluctant/incapable of finishing a subplot.

Did he intend to finish? Probably.

Was he capable of finishing? Previous work suggests not.

It was supposed to be, and then he got a pay-by-the-word contract, or so I understand...

The unnecessary verbosity of these books makes me so mad I could just tug on my braid.

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