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Comment by alehul | Hacker News Reader

The response from Arenanet [1] is noteworthy, as they specifically gave a list of programs that they banned for. If they weren't spying on the programs users have running, I'd expect them to ban on less specific factors than exactly this list of five programs.

[1] https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/476255/#C...

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It's an interesting response because it shows that not only were they tracking program usage over a period of time ("significant number of hours during a multi-week period earlier this year"), but _also_ shows that they quite possibly could have banned people who _weren't_ cheating ("We targeted programs that allow players to cheat and gain unfair gameplay advantages, even if those programs have other, more benign uses."). I use Cheat Engine all the time to mess around in single player games, and quite often leave it running in the background or forget to close it -- that in no way means I'm cheating at other types of games. Further, it's just a memory editor -- unless GW2 is trusting the client where it shouldn't, would it even work on an MMO?

> would it even work on an MMO?

CheatEngine is a great first step in developing any bot, for any game.

GW2 doesn't have to trust the client for CE to be useful, it's just that the usefulness is different than what you're using it for currently. The goal of CE in developing an MMO bot is to figure out where in memory things like player location, party members, linked list of all nearby objects, etc, are. This allows the user to write the bot in a way that's pulling information directly from memory. CE is a great way to back into this data (coupled with a debugger/disassemble, of course).

What's fun is that GW2 even gives you an API you can use to get information like player location. Used it a few years ago to automatically switch maps in my map event timer:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/API:MumbleLink

My understanding is that even with a perfect server side simulated game you can read memory to find out extra information even if the game logic is on the server, i.e. that's how X-Ray in UT99 and Minecraft works.

This is also hardly the first such incident (unfair bans or borderline spyware anti-cheats), it'll end without any long term echos as always.

If you were sure you were banned unfairly and went to the support they'd just link you to some ToS or other, saying that all bans are 101% sure, confirmed, irreversible, etc. If you went to forums you'd get insults, told that you deserved it, that you're making excuses, that there are no legitimate reasons to run CE, etc. or at best told that you were an idiot to have CE running in the background and thus deserve a ban for being so careless.

Eventually you might get unbanned automatically, with an apology and a freebie - or not. It depends on the specific company, how many people were banned, how big of an issue it is, does the company bother to fix it, is it reported by the media as a problem, etc.

It's kind of a crapshoot and a circus but then again - it's just games (except for the 1% of esportsmen) and they don't have such a bad track record compared to important companies (Facebook, Equifax, etc.) that leak or sell people's life affecting data.

> unless GW2 is trusting the client where it shouldn't, would it even work on an MMO?

MMOs have to trust the client, to a large extent, in order to avoid janky gameplay on ~150ms connections.

> We understand that your Guild Wars 2 accounts are important to you and we take that trust very seriously. Our goal is to continue to foster a safe and fair community for all. We believe that everyone deserves transparency, which is why we're providing this additional information.

Wow, what a non-apology.

A large segment of gamers hate cheaters with such a passion that nearly any measure is justified in fighting them. It's quite possibly even the majority of gamers. The reality is that Arenanet is not going to see a large backlash from this. A minor course-correction is all that the gaming community is going to demand from them.

sounds like how politicians act, exploit anger to get what you want all the while convincing others its good for them.

however with all the talk about privacy it never ceases to amaze me how fast people will give it up if they get what they want or worse, if something bad or inconveniencing happens to people they don't like. what does that say about society when people will give up something just to punish or deprive others.

> what does that say about society when people will give up something just to punish or deprive others.

There's literally zero point to competitive online gaming if cheaters run rampant, you might as well not bother. Of course people interested in competitive online gaming support countermeasures.

> what does that say about society when people will give up something just to punish or deprive others.

I also believe in a police force and laws. Giving up my ability to rob without legal consequences in order punish and deprive others.

I'm not to convinced that says many bad things about me though.

Nobody invested in a competitive game is going to want cheaters running rampant.

I count myself among the group I believe you're alluding to, though not as you've described it. If I'm spending my time playing a game, I don't want to waste queuing time only to discover that I've been placed in an unplayable match because someone is cheating. When this becomes prevalent (always seeing a cheater if you play > 1 hr), I'll quit the game, because it's taking the fun out of it for me, and potentially giving satisfaction to cheaters, which I'd rather avoid.

So I'd appreciate a warning that I'm being spied on, and perhaps a description of ways they're avoiding sensitive data. But the game I'm going to quit is the one where I can't get away from cheaters: not the one where the game makers are being overzealous in watching for them.

I apologize for the negative tone. I should have tried to make my point more neutrally, with less exaggeration. I have major complaints with how single-player games have been given minor online integrations that have justified locking them down completely in the name of anti-cheat. It has left me a little jaded.

But, that's neither here nor there. Regardless of my personal feelings, the average gamer agrees with you. Arenanet had pure intentions. They were trying to fulfill the wishes of their fans, so the mistake in how they rolled this out will be forgiven.

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