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Comment by urda | Hacker News Reader

Louis Rossmann, who openly admitted to using illegally obtained schematics and internal documents from Apple? I wouldn't be throwing that name around as a talking point at all in this discussion.

The reason why Apple doesn't want any Joe-schmoe just yanking and replacing caps and other components is simple: quality control. I can barely count on two hands people I would be comfortable working on the innards of a PC, let alone my phone and even then let alone desoldering and soldering new components onboard.

Apple isn't doing this because they don't want people to repair their stuff, but because for most consumers it isn't feasible without ruining the rest of the product. These are small, compact, and complicated devices. It's not like swapping out some RAM or a GPU on a desktop rig at all.

So yes, replace the whole board and recycle the old (as Apple does with most of their parts).

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> Louis Rossmann, who openly admitted to using illegally obtained schematics and internal documents from Apple? I wouldn't be throwing that name around as a talking point at all in this discussion.

So you're discounting someone's opinion because they were forced to use unauthorized repair manuals since the manufacturer stopped producing repair manuals for devices customers have paid for? That's the whole crux of the issue, that people have lost the "right to repair" their own devices due to suppressing information, suppressing reverse engineering efforts, and suppressing compatible replacement components (and software).

Effectively you're saying that if someone supports and tries to uphold the "right to repair" their opinions should be ignored because they did something a large corporation told them not to.

> Apple isn't doing this because they don't want people to repair their stuff

See, I thought it was financially motivated.

> but because for most consumers it isn't feasible without ruining the rest of the product.

Someone has a broken device, they shouldn't be allowed to try and repair it themselves because they could make it worse? In either case they have a broken device. And Apple is well within their rights to refuse a repair after someone has tried a DIY repair, but often that isn't a financial possibility which is why a DIY repair was tried to begin with.

You don't have to go far to find an anecdote of someone who took an older Macbook into an Apple store and the repair cost was nearly as high as a replacement cost.

> So you're discounting someone's opinion because they were forced to use unauthorized repair manuals because the manufacturer stopped producing repair manuals for devices customers have paid for?

Yes, because it's a legal case we are discussing here and that's called "breaking the law". Failing to understand that means I cannot discuss this article with you at all since a really important common understanding has been missed on your part.

> that's called "breaking the law"

Right, which is why people are advocating getting the law changed, because they believe the practical outcome of law as it current exists is not just (nor economically efficient, for that matter).

> Yes, because it's a legal case we are discussing here and that's called "breaking the law".

It is an issue for society at large, fair use should include repair materials, and if you look at judgements from vehicles and farm equipment cases you'll see that the legal side isn't clear cut anyway.

Not least of all because you're conflating OWNING stolen materials and REDISTRIBUTING them. Copyright largely covers the latter and not the former. In this case they're simply owning a "stolen" document and using the knowledge from it, which isn't within itself a copyright infringement or illegal.

Unless you can explain how simply owning a stolen document is "breaking the law." Which law?

> Failing to understand that means I cannot discuss this article with you at all since a really important common understanding has been missed on your part.

You don't wish to discuss it because it challenges your whole viewpoint. Which is in essence that Apple's rights extend into a device they sold to a user, and that a user shouldn't be legally allowed to "tamper" with their own property.

> Yes, because it's a legal case we are discussing here and that's called "breaking the law".

Even if this is true, the law isn’t some divine fiat. Some laws are dumb and it is proper and patriotic to point it out and criticize. Just because something might be against the law doesn’t make it wrong. Your argument is the shallowest sort of moral argument, that things should be done a certain way just because that’s how they’re done.

Please don't cross into personal swipes. If you can't discuss something, it suffices not to discuss it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

If his facts are correct, it's irrelevant that he also broke the law. Facts are facts.

>manufacturer stopped producing repair manuals for devices customers have paid for

Why is a manufacturer in any way obligated to provide this information for customers (and for free, no less)? Apple is not stopping him from taking apart these devices and figuring out how to repair them but I don't see why they should shoulder any obligation to provide that information to people that refuse to become an authorized repair center (which is exactly what that authorization and certification gets them).

>Someone has a broken device, they shouldn't be allowed to try and repair it themselves

This is not at all the point of contention nor in any way what Apple is doing here. Stop spreading FUD.

> Louis Rossmann, who openly admitted to using illegally obtained schematics and internal documents from Apple?

Are you seriously trying to discredit a man for doing exactly what he's fighting for?

It's like trying to discredit a politician that's pushing for the abolition of jaywalking by saying that he jay walks himself. No shit - that's the whole point.

I'll repost the same thing here, since apparently this is confusing to some HN users this morning:

> So you're discounting someone's opinion because they were forced to use unauthorized repair manuals because the manufacturer stopped producing repair manuals for devices customers have paid for?

"I'm sorry, I can't discuss this case with you because you won't sit at the back of the bus, like the law says" --You 60 years ago

>The reason why Apple doesn't want any Joe-schmoe just yanking and replacing caps and other components is simple: quality control. I can barely count on two hands people I would be comfortable working on the innards of a PC, let alone my phone and even then let alone desoldering and soldering new components onboard.

And yet people are perfectly OK with a greasy mechanic fixing their metal cage hurtling down the freeway at 65 miles per hour. Your attempt to demean skilled repair workers is rather telling of your own bias.

Quality control only happens on premises you control. Once the product reaches the point-of-sale terminal, the consumer own it, and the QC job is done. You send your product out onto the free market and have to hope you raised it well enough to uphold your brand.

It isn't about QC; it's about money. It's the same reason every car dealership has an in-house repair department. Branded repairs mean that people can still buy the brand after they already own the product. Counterfeits cut into that revenue stream.

> The reason why Apple doesn't want any Joe-schmoe just yanking and replacing caps and other components is simple: quality control

Right, and the entire discussion is that Apple's right to quality control has overreached to the point that it is now impinging upon the common sense right of someone to be able try to fix something that they own when it breaks.

How so? Apple isn't stopping anyone from being able to try and fix something that they own. The only action they've taken is against companies claiming that they're an Apple authorized repair center when they're not.

About counting people thing: your frame of reference is probably too narrow?

Come to thing of it, I personally don't know ten people capable of doing state of the art SMD repairs but I'm sure there are many more than that in _my town_.

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